BONUS EP02: You Belong in Every Room; Not Every Room Deserves You
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Minda Harts is an award-winning and bestselling author of The Memo: What Women of Color Need to Know to Secure a Seat at the Table. She joins 2050 TrailBlazers for the second episode of our special History Makers Series, featuring and celebrating all Black women, during Black History Month.
This episode was recorded mere days after the domestic terrorist attack on our nation’s capital, a time which has caused an increased racial reckoning in the United States.
Throughout all of 2020, the country talked about race; now it's time to activate those conversations.
The silver lining of the pandemic was that many Americans got out of their own bubble, and were able to witness the incredible inequities around them.
In this sweeping conversation, Minda reflects on what Black and brown women need to succeed in the workplace, why we should toss imposter syndrome aside, and the important role of activated allyship.
Now is the time for white women and men to reject bystander status, and help their Black and Brown colleagues, neighbors and friends, make the workplace work for everybody.
What you’ll learn:
How to reject bystander status on the road to allyship
The importance of knowing your colleagues inside and outside the workplace
How to support Black women in the workplace
The importance of building your squad and social capital
The difference between mentors and sponsors, and why both are important
How to activate the many conversations swirling around racism
How to consider which strategic moves to make to climb the corporate ladder
The importance of not taking up space when getting a seat at the table
The importance of sharing intersectionality in broad, sweeping statistics
The difference between imposter syndrome and being nervous
Show Notes:
The Memo | What Women of Color Need to Know to Secure a Seat at the Table
Episode Transcript
Rianka (00:00): Minda thank you so much for joining me on 2050 TrailBlazers.
Minda (00:05): Happy to be here. Thank you, Rianka.
Rianka (00:07): Now more than ever conversations like the one we're having today is so important. So I thank you for taking the time to chat with me. February, gosh, it's been a long year and it's only February. February is Black History Month. And for our History Maker Series, I've selected all Black women to highlight. You know, I am officially proclaiming the year 2021, the year of Black women. I feel like we have hit a turning point in our lives where we are truly living out the saying, I am my ancestor's wildest dreams. I want to thank you for the capacity and energy you give these types of conversations almost daily. You have dedicated your career to women who look like me to navigate the politics of corporate America so that we can secure a seat at the table.
Rianka (01:10): And I cannot, at the time of this recording, pretend that we did not just go through a very scary situation. You recently tweeted out something that we were all thinking, but we couldn't formalize the words. And so, if it's okay with you, I'll share some of your sentiments about, you know, what happened at the Capitol last week.
Minda (01:37): Yes, please do. Thank you.
Rianka (01:40): So you shared, and I love this. I go hard for women of color. We work with the same people who stormed the Capitol. Many of our managers and leaders who weren't there, donate money. These are the same people who you try and say don't mean any harm. When we tell you it's racism, then there was a sub tweet by a white woman who works at a known company who shared that her company recently fired a managing director, which is a C-suite level position for this very reason that you just stated Minda. And now they have to do some internal investigations to address exactly how she impacted their employees and their cultures. Let's be very clear. This is a very clear example of systemic racism. So let's just jump in. How can we hold these managers accountable without the fear of our advancement?
Minda (02:46): Yeah, it's a great question. And you know, all of 2020, primarily we talked about race, right? And now it's time to actually activate those conversations that we were having all year long and that means some action has to, has to happen. And so for me, I was actually happy to see the woman, you know, sub suite and say there are some repercussions to storming the Capitol, right. And, but all at the same time, it makes me sad because for so long, we've been saying, Hey, look at these people something isn't right here. Yes. I don't want to call it racism, but I have no other thing to point it to. Right. Like, hear me, take us seriously. You know, why am I not advancing? Like some of my counterparts are. All of these things, and for us, it's an unfortunate place, but we have to have some evidence, right.
Minda (03:42): Some tangible evidence for people to believe our stories. And so I'm glad that we have the evidence that those pictures, the travel documents, whatever, you know, some of these sites that has the paper trail, right. So we can say, Hey, let's take a closer look. And, and if that's what it takes, I hope that once, and for all, we can have some real candid conversations and that people will see that their jobs are on the line. Like it's not okay to be racist outside. And for some reason think that you're not exhibiting those same behaviors inside the workplace.
Rianka (04:18): Absolutely. And so, let's go to, you know, conversations that we're having and I'm so happy you mentioned 2020, because I think we're all trying to forget it, but we can't. You know, 2020, as you all know, we lived through, a pandemic for those of us who were blessed and fortunate enough to live through the pandemic. I think the silver lining is that we all got out of our own bubble. And we were able to see what was happening in other communities, specifically the Black community, our community, and, you know, the world stopped really, there was no travel. It was, you know, we're home, we're home with our family, we're home with our children. And I think the world finally got to see what just like, you just stayed at Minda. What we've been screaming at the top of our lungs for so long of look, this is, this is what's happening in our community.
Rianka (05:26): And, what are we going to do about it? Right? So we, you, have been, you know, in the forefront of this conversation for so long. And I feel like, you know, it's time to become activated in a sense of, well, what are you going to do about it? Right. And, and we, as Black and Brown people, we lived through it. And so we have to work through it. We have to wear this armor, which I'll talk about here in a second, but for the white women and white men who are listening, who want to not be bystanders anymore, but become our true allies. What are some pieces of advice that you can give these people, to help move us forward, in these conversations, but also, you know, in the work in the workplace.
Minda (06:27): Yeah. I'm so glad you asked that question, because I think for so long, many of those in the dominant majority tend to say, well, I'm not as bad as so-and-so, right. Well, I didn't say what so-and-so said. And they think that that's enough because they weren't the offender. And I think that now we have to dig even a layer and say, you know what? You use the word bystander. Bystanders are just as much at fault when they see something going down. Right. And in my mind, I used to, when I was in my former life, I used to think that, Oh, it was so-and-so that it was always causing me this racial harm. And then as I started to heal, I realized, you know what? It wasn't just them. It was all the people who watched them do it too. And I think now, you know, our white colleagues, aspiring allies, success partners, they have a real choice right now to say, do I want to be an ally in name only?
Minda (07:29): Or do I want to activate and actually make the workplace better for everybody? And it takes some courage, right. So I would first ask them to really investigate and interrogate. Do you want to be an ally? Right? Because it requires something of you, you know? And, and I think if you've been comfortable, if you are comfortable in 2020, then you probably weren't being an ally. Right. And so I think that it's not, it's a scale, right? I can't tell you what allyship looks like for you, but I hope that you will consider the next time you see something that isn't right, that you will figure out what is it that you can do to be part of the solution. And I think if we're all thinking solution-based in the workplace, then we create more of an equitable environment.
Rianka (08:14): Yes. It's you know, taking me to, I live in the DC Metro area. And, when we used to take the Metro, it would say, you know, see something, say something. And I think that needs to be our motto here on out. Like if we see something, we have to say something, and I think you said this, maybe it was an interview. I've done so much research on you. So I'm getting it mixed up maybe with the book or, or, or interview, but you said it very plainly and bluntly, if you are not an ally, you are an accomplice. And that is so and so we're hoping, you know, our white colleagues take a stand and, you know, be an active ally in the workplace. And then also just in our community as well. Like, we can't do this by ourselves.
Minda (09:13): No. And we can't, and that's the thing, right? Like if we could do it by ourselves, we would have already done it, but it's, it takes, it takes two, right. It takes, as they say a village and we need our white counterparts, to really help us if that's what they want to do. Right. But I think we've moved past the, the begging and the pleading. So either you're about this work or you're not, and if you're not, then, you know, step out of the way so that others can, can lean into their courage and push aside their caution.
Rianka (09:49): Yes. So I kind of, you know, share this before. Just, even with last week, right. You know, these domestic terrorists, storming, our capital and, you know, there was some people, you know, tweeting out or even in the financial planning community that I'm in. That's the space I'm in outside of being a podcaster, you know, they said business as usual and Minda, that is such a trigger for me, that is such a trigger for me because this is not business as usual. So if that's the mindset that you have, or have had over 2020, you are the accomplice, if you weren't uncomfortable or had uncomfortable conversations, last year, you're the accomplice. And so encouraging everyone just to be activated and just no longer be bystanders. So, you know, shifting the conversation back to Black women, and, it's something that you had mentioned in the book, The Memo, which I love, and I will make sure I link in our show notes so that everyone can get a copy. Is that you mentioned, building your squad and social capital and for the seasoned millennials. And I like, that's how you called it seasoned millennials, because millennials is such a wide range of age. But yes, I'm a seasoned millennial and, and yes, I do remember myspace and I remember the top eight. And so, you know, navigating the corporate landscape and, building our social capital. What are some of the characteristics of the people who should be in our top eight as we're building our squad?
Minda (11:43): Yeah. That's a really great question. And I think that as we think about building our squad and let's, let's be honest. I know that many of us are still working from home. And so you're even thinking, what does that even look like in a virtual environment? And, you know, building that social capital is even more important now in a virtual environment than it might have been, in a physical environment. And so when I think about my team, right, I look at myself as the captain of that team and who do I need on my squad to be successful? And I look at the people that I work with. I look at those who maybe work in different departments, right? And so when you're thinking about, it's not just your work BFF, right? That's on your squad. It's also, you know, maybe the IT person, it's never a bad thing to have one of those people on your squad.
Minda (12:41): Absolutely. It might be HR, right? Because they know some of the things that are coming down the pipeline. And if you've articulated some of your career goals and aspirations, then they're thinking of you, right. And so also having someone in senior leadership that you've built relationships with. And so this is all about relationship building because when you're not in the room who's speaking your name, but then if something goes down or there's an open position and somebody on your squad, cause they know they want to be helpful and they're invested in your success, they're going to say, you know what? I remember Minda was interested in this. You should talk with her, you should consider her. And I think it's so important that we have a team of people internally and externally, that we can really rely on and that we trust. And the only way you're going to find out who is going to be a good team member is kind of through tryouts. Right? You have to get to know them. You have to put yourself out there. So have those virtual coffees have those physical coffees when you're able and get to know people. Because, before you tell your career dreams and aspirations, you got to vet these folks. So, and sometimes you'll get it right. Sometimes you get it wrong, but you'll never know if you don't put yourself out there.
Rianka (13:55): Absolutely. And so something that you said that I want to dig a bit deeper is, you know, one of the people that you need to have on your squad or in your top eight, I keep laughing. Cause it's bringing back so many memories, Minda myspace when things was just so much more simple.
Minda (14:15): So much more simple
Rianka (14:17): You mentioned, as far as, you know, some of the characteristics or some of the actions that people should be taking, if they're on your squad is people who are speaking for you when you're not in the room. And so that brings me to actually defining the difference between a mentor and a sponsor. Can you talk a little bit more about that and why having both is important?
Minda (14:43): Yep, absolutely. And we need both. I think I remember reading in an article. I can't remember who put it out, but it said that Black women are over mentored. Like, and you might be thinking, well, I, you know, I'm a Black woman and I don't have a mentor, but many of us do have mentors, but a lot of us don't have sponsors and you definitely need both on your, on your squad. Right. And so I think that when you're thinking about mentorship, that's somebody you go to for advice, right? It might be, Hey, I have a new client coming up. I want to talk to them about fees, but I'm not sure how to price this. I know that, you know, my friend, Gary he works in a similar space and he has, you know, high profile clients. Let me ask for some advice, right?
Minda (15:29): He, that person becomes like that kind of your go-to person. They're giving you advice. You're building that relationship. Now, Gary may not be able to give you any new clients or provide you any access, but he's giving you really great advice. So he's mentoring you and then a sponsor could be the same person. But typically it always doesn't pan out that way. But someone who's in a position of influence that has an opportunity for you that can really help catapult your career in some way, shape or form in a, in a quick example of that is in my previous life, I had a gentleman named Chuck and Chuck was a white, older man, probably about 30, maybe even 40 years older. Now I don't even know. I just know he was a lot older than me, but he had, he was able to speak my name in the rooms that I wasn't in.
Minda (16:21): And when people said, no, I don't think that Minda is ready for that. She doesn't have enough experience. He's like, I'm vouching for her. I think she does. You know, let's give it a shot. And because he, because people respected him and his leadership, they're like, okay, let's give Minda a chance. And when I did get that shot, I slammed dunked it. And I was now that go-to person that everybody came to and he brought me into the room to have my seat at the table. And so had he not done that had I not first built the relationship with them, but then he sponsored me. And I think that sponsorship is so important, especially for Black women, women of color, because oftentimes we don't have the same relationships that some of our, our colleagues have. And, oftentimes you get your name gets thrown in the room because you remind them of your daughter or something, but we don't always remind people of their daughter because they don't see their daughter maybe in us. So for people to really say, Hey, how can I use my influence and help someone else? And it's not charity, this is relationship building. And once you understand what somebody's aspirations are and what their competencies are, then you can really leverage the relationship for good.
Rianka (17:32): Yes. And that's something that you mentioned in your book too, is like go to the happy hour. Everything happens after 6:00 PM. And so what do you mean by that? You know, let's pretend we're not in a pandemic world, and you know, post pandemic, you know, what do you mean by just go to the happy hour?
Minda (17:52): Yeah. I was one of those people who I'm like, you know what, I've done my job. I don't want to hang out anymore. You know, that's not what I was hired to do to go to happy hour. But, but what I realized was, people that's where people were finding their squad members, right. They were finding people, to put on their squads and, I was missing out on some of those opportunities and I thought, okay, well, what do I have to lose? Let me go to some of these happy hours and see what's going on. And, and once I started to do that, people started to look at me different, right? They're like, Oh, she's cool. You know? And because the rules are different, right. You're in a different, I might, I was like one of the best consultants on my team numbers wise, but because I shared a couple of laughs with Bob now, I'm like the best.
Minda (18:39): Right. And so for some of us, we need, we need both of both of those angles being probed. And so even in this virtual environment, you, there's still virtual bingos happening, virtual book clubs. So in or out of pandemic, put yourself in the spaces to where people see you, they see a different version of you. They see, where you're more humanized, right. Because I think sometimes I'll speak for myself when I was in corporate America, I was very like buttoned down. Right. I wasn't really playing any games. I wasn't joking. I was doing those things. Now, I like those things, but I'm like, I'm here to do a job. So sometimes people didn't get to see that in me. Right. And unfortunately, but fortunately, sometimes people have to feel like they know you in a sense to provide opportunities for you. And so I think for women of color and Black women, it's beneficial to us to go into those spaces. And this is not to key key with Bob in it, for us, we're building our career and pushing it forward.
Rianka (19:42): Right. So you have to think about this as your strategic movement. If your aspiration is to climb the corporate ladder, and again, like there, you know, as I was reading your book and I just re-read it again, I was just yelling at it because I'm just like, yes, yes, yes. And yes. So again, if you don't have this book, this book is not just for Black women. This book is for allies as well, because if you're wondering, how can I help Minda? How can I help support Rianka you need to read this book. And then the ownerism of, how can we tell you to support us is almost answered by reading the book and now you're coming with solutions instead of questions. Yeah. That's one thing
Minda (20:33): That part
Rianka (20:36): Is that, I was you too, well I kinda still am. I love my sleep. Like Minda. I love sleep. Right. And so it's so funny, you know, when we would go out to conferences, people knew they would not see me after 10:00 PM. And I don't know how they do it. They can stay out to two, three in the morning and be up at 8:00 AM, bright eyed and bushy tailed for a 8:00 AM session. And I'm just like, I don't know how y'all do it. Yeah. I need my full eight hours, but it's a skill that you have to learn, period. Even if, even if your aspiration is not joining the, you know, climbing the corporate ladder, if you want any type of leadership position in your sector, in your workspace, it, sometimes it comes down to a vote and people just have to know you just like Minda is sharing. People have to know who you are, inside the workplace, but also outside. So that is some really good advice.
Minda (21:35): Thank you.
Rianka (21:37): And then On the flip side, you know, something else that you share is that, you know, earlier in our conversation, you mentioned either Chuck or Bob, you know, spoke very highly of you. Now you have a seat at the table, right? So Minda, you got the seat at the table
Rianka (21:57): And you also share so many of us have gotten a seat at the table, but still too grateful to shake things up. Let's talk about that
Minda (22:08): As the old, listen, Linda, I mean, that is the thing, right? Because for so long, we have been kept out of that infamous room. And so, we get there and then, some of us are just taking up space, right? If there were, if none of us were in there previously, who do you think was called to that room to change it? Right. Like, I feel like there is an expectation, a responsibility in a sense to not just get to the table and kick up your feet and say, wow, I've made it. This is great. You know, planning my next vacation, but how are we bringing other women of color with us? How are we using our voice? Because yeah, it took some work to get to the table, but the real work starts when you get to that table.
Minda (22:59): And I think that, you know, that imposter syndrome or fear or whatever, anxiety, whatever you want to call it sometimes prevents us from really securing that seat. So we're sitting in it, but we're not securing it. And there's a difference. And I think that, that's what many of our colleagues maybe hope we would do is just sit there and be quiet because that's what the workplace has told us that as Black woman that's our role. Right. And so in order to shake things up, shake the status quo up, we can no longer be, you know, when the workplace was created, they would, did not create it so that you or me could be at the table. Okay. And so now that we're there that's history, right? And so now what are you going to do to make sure that you're leaving that room better than you found it?
Minda (23:44): And there's so much that goes into that. But even when you think about succession planning, even when you leave that seat, you know, what did you do to set it up for somebody else to take it? And I think that we have so much brilliance and expertise that we sometimes talk ourselves out of these opportunities. And at that point it's on us. Right? And so I think the more we talk about these things to remind ourselves, Hey, you belong in every room you enter, but maybe not every room deserves to have you, like, we are the asset. We are the prize. Okay. And so I think that we forget that sometimes
Rianka (24:17): You just said a word, you just said a word. And if we were in church, I felt like, you know, we'll be all jumping up with our fans because I'm a fanning myself right now. And I think we need to, as Black women, remember that every room we enter do not deserve us. And that is a very important distinction to remember. And now I want to transition a little bit Minda because, you know, we enter these rooms. And as you mentioned in the book, we started getting these paper cuts, these, these microaggressions that start to happen. When we put on armor, we wear so much to work everyday that's invisible, Minda as Black women, we wear so much, we wear what happened at the Capitol. We were seeing a black man lynched on live TV, George Floyd, we see Tamir Rice. We see all of this.
Rianka (25:18): And I think last year we finally was like, you know what? I'm not okay. And I need a day, maybe two. So, you know, a song is coming to my head. It's like, who do we run to, to share this? And you know, if you know me, I don't know the words to no songs, even though I will blast it in my car saying it, like, I know the words and I don't know it, but it's just like, who do we run to? Minda, you know, when we're the only, and nine times out of 10, especially in the financial service industry, we are the only in the room. And I'm so proud to say at 2050 Wealth Partners, my financial planning firm, we're not the only, you know, my, my other senior, financial planner. And co-CEO, she's a Black, a fierce Black woman as well. And so we're no longer the only, but it was through forced entrepreneurship, which we'll talk about here in a second, but is this like, if we do, if our aspirations is to stay in corporate America, who do we go to?
Minda (26:24): Yeah. That's the million dollar question, right? And it was really one of the reasons that I wrote The Memo because I just, you know, I have a line in the book that says, where do the broken hearts go of women of color when we can't take it anymore? And that's that aggression, right? It's those racialized workplace aggressions that happen constantly sometimes several times a day, the paper cuts that you said, and, and we often don't have the agency to be able to say, you know what, actually, you might not have intended harm, but it did cause harm in, you know, I'm only telling you this because I know that's not what you want to do going forward. Right. But we don't often even get to say that right. Without being met with, well, no, you took it the wrong way. So it's almost like our experiences don't matter in the workplace and we become or feel we're invisible because that's the way we're treated inside the workplace and it is hard.
Minda (27:19): Right. Because in theory, we are supposed to be able to go to our managers. In theory, we're supposed to be able to go to HR, you know, in theory. But we know that sometimes when we cross that line, it becomes, we're the problem now, you know? And so how can anybody do their best work of their career under those types of constraints? And that's why we have to have these conversations because our colleagues need to know that this is, these are many toxic work environments that we're wearing and we're wearing this armor just to get through the day. But we want to pack light too. You know,
Rianka (27:54): We do want to pack light. Yeah. And so it's a article that was written, last month. So it'll be a couple of months by the time this air, that someone interviewed you about, and I'm gonna make sure I put it in the show notes. It's, it's Six Phrases to Avoid Using in Conversations about Race. And so again, for my white colleagues who are listening and you want to become an ally, an active ally, I encourage you to read this article because a lot of what, Minda, what you just shared about like, Oh, you're taking it the wrong way. And like, Oh, I'm not racist. Like, Oh, don't play the race card. Or I have Black friends. Like these are things to not say. And you share in this article what to say instead. So I'm going to make sure I link that article to the show notes, again, to provide you all with resources and tools so that we can, continue to move this conversation forward.
Rianka (28:52): So, you know, speaking of, you know, who do we run to, we can run to you because, you know, in the fall of 2018, you started the Women of Color Equity Initiative, which aims to increase the number of women of color and Black women in management and executive roles in corporate and not-for-profit organization. And so representation matters, right? Because if, if Black women are securing the seat at the table at the C-suite level, you know, positions, in corporate America, I'm hoping that there will be some support there. And so let's talk about, why on top of everything that you do, this was something that you were intentional about the Women of Color Equity Initiative.
Minda (29:43): Yeah. Thank you for asking. And, it's funny because, so I have The Memo LLC, and then I started in 2015 and then, the Women of Color Equity Initiative in 2018. And I really started that more as a passion project, if you will. You know, I just wanted to see with some intentionality, how could companies do better by women of color and Black women in the workplace, in these management, in senior and executive roles. And so, because often you see the reports that come out each year and they'll say, Oh, we only move, you know, we didn't move the needle, how we thought we could. And it's like, well, how did you think you were going to move it? If you're still recruiting at the same places, if you're still going to the same pool expecting a different wave, you know?
Minda (30:31): And so I wanted to really hold some accountability, to certain companies to say, if you truly want to move the needle, then I know some women, they're out here, you know, we're out here. It's just, you know, where are you looking in, in what sourcing tools are you using? Are you even diversifying the sourcing tools that you're using? Right. And so, and the passion project, I was like, Oh, it's more than a passion. I gotta roll my sleeves up and keep this moving forward. And so, it's really important for me to make sure that the workplace works for everybody. And if the workplace is working for Black women and women of color, then it's working for everybody and we're not there yet. And so I'm looking for those partners who want to work on the action part of the conversation.
Rianka (31:21): Yes. And so, you know, again, I am a financial planner, so there are a lot of financial planning companies, who listened to this podcast. And so if you are one of them, there is going to be a link in the show notes and please visit, you know, this site and figure out how to, become partners with the Women of Color Equity Initiative, because she has some great resources and yeah, we're just going to continue to move the needle. And I love that analogy. You can't go to the same pool and expect a different wave, you gotta go to different pools. Yes.
Rianka (32:04): So, shifting gears a little bit, there are some of us, you know, before 2018, before the Women of Color Equity Initiative started, we, we kind of left corporate America or whether it was from, you know, just being disheartened about how we were being treated, whether it was the microaggression, whether it was the armor that we felt like we had to wear every single day. You know, at least that, that was definitely my experience, where it was a forced entrepreneurship feel, because I would have loved to stay in corporate America. I would have loved to have a retirement plan and, and health benefits. And there's so much, you have to leave behind for your sanity and what are some, guidance or, advice for women who like me have decided to go off on our own.
Minda (33:06): Yeah. You know, it's a, it's a pain point for me. Because like you said, many of us were forced into entrepreneurship. It was not the initial dream, right, and we had spent much of our careers, you know, I spent 15 years in my former life and I would have liked to stay and get that good retirement and all of those extra things that I was very comfortable in receiving. But the reality was even with all those good benefits, the great salary, et cetera, it was good on paper, but it was killing me softly. Right. All of the microaggressions, all of the isolation, all of the things. I tried to keep it going as long as I possibly could. And there was just some point where I'm like, you know what? My sanity means more to me than this paycheck in this sense, I'll figure it out on this other side on make up the difference.
Minda (34:06): But I just knew that I deserved more and Audrey Lorde, she has a quote and she says, beware of feeling like you're not good enough to deserve it. What I would say to you is you deserve a workplace that treats you with respect, treats you with dignity, right? These aren't things, that they should just be givens. And when we, as Black women, women of color are not receiving that. It doesn't necessarily mean that we have to leave corporate America entirely, but we have to find those spaces and plant ourselves in places we can grow. Right. And sometimes we need a break from corporate, and that requires starting our own. But I just want to let you know that there are paths. And if you take a break, don't feel any kind of way about jumping back in, right. But now you have some new information and questions to ask when you start to interview, because interviewing happens on both sides.
Minda (34:58): And so for me, my heart breaks, and it's the work that I do to try to keep us in corporate America, because we need some on both sides of the table. Right. And I want to put pressure on these corporations to say, we should have a choice. We should be able to make a choice. Like, Hey, I like this environment, but you know, I want to pursue my, my business over here, like having a choice, not being forced. And that's what bothers me. And sometimes we highlight, like, in these magazines, I'll see, you know, 2020 was the biggest year for Black women in entrepreneurship. And we like throw a party for this, which is, I'm not saying we shouldn't, but let's get down to, to why it's that high, let's ask the real question.
Rianka (35:43): Yeah. It's something I have conversations. You know, amongst my, my squad, often it's just like, yeah, it's a number to be, great. Right. And, and let's get into the weeds of this. Like, should we be celebrating this? There was, a stat and I think you tweeted this out too, about the number of job loss that happened in December, it was like over a hundred thousand and it was all women. And if we dig deeper, was it all Black women?
Minda (36:19): It was all Black women and Latino women.
Rianka (36:22): Wow. And so, again, so now in 2021, we may see a ton of new businesses and small businesses and entrepreneurship from Black and Latina women. And it's not because we want it to, it was forced. It was forced. And so we have to be careful with celebrating these, these numbers because it's just like, well, how did we get here?
Minda (36:48): Exactly. And you know, one thing I also want to highlight is when that article came out in this is why one size doesn't fit all that, that article said women were the hardest hit. But when you pull that intersectionality was not really talked about in that original article, but white women saw a lot of gains in December, you know? And so I think, again, when we even talk about gender equality, we have to be very clear on what intersection of gender we're talking about.
Rianka (37:16): Yeah. Let's, let's touch on that point really quickly. Because a lot of stats just like this one, just like in the financial services world, a lot of stats stay at the gender level, and I just want to talk more about just the intersectionality about like, we can't just talk about women. We have to talk about Black women, you know, Latina women. We have to get down to the nuts and bolts of it and share those specific statistics. And it's for a very important reason, and you chatted about this also in your book and let's share with the listeners why this is so important to have the intersectionality around women and specifically Black women.
Minda (38:02): Absolutely, because we're often erased in these statistics. Again, someone would read that same article and say, wow, women have had it hard in December. Women have had it hard in 2020, but not all women have had it hard, you know? And so, I think we really have to be careful about these broad sweeping statistics that we put out there, because then we'll never really get to the solutions. You talked about being part of the solutions. And we've talked about that today and how can we talk about gender equality when you're not fighting for all women? And a lot of these companies that have, Oh, we're trying to reach 50% gender equity by blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, how many of those are Black? How many of those women are Latina women? You know, a lot of these initiatives tend to benefit white women. And I think sometimes people get offended when you say that, but those are the facts, you know? And so are you really? And I would venture to say that companies are not saying we only want to advance white women. I don't believe that's true, but if you're not being intentional, then that's, what's going to happen.
Rianka (39:16): Right. And speaking of being intentional, I want to, again, thank you for writing The Memo, which almost didn't happen because a few publishers, you went to said, there wasn't an audience for it. And now here you are, award-winning and bestselling author of The Memo: What Women of Color Need to Know to Secure a Seat at the Table. And you mentioned in various other interviews, how imposter syndrome kicked in, when you were being told no. And so as we kind of wrap up, our discussion here today, I want you to chat about overcoming imposter syndrome because listen, this book is needed. This book was needed. I'm so happy you wrote it. And we need more Black authors because history has been told through the lens of a white man for too long.
Minda (40:15): Amen. Well, thank you. I'm very humbled by it. I would say that imposter syndrome is something that I definitely battle. I'm not claiming it for myself. I'm trying to not battle it every day, but it's something that for so long was, attached to my mindset because of some of the environments I was in. But what I have told myself is what I try to tell as many people as I can is I tell myself a new story about myself every day. And that is one of abundance, right? And not lack. And every space that I enter or the things that I decide to participate in and imposter syndrome, can't go where I'm headed. It's only going to stop me and as a Black woman in America, there's too many other barriers. So I, I have a choice. And I choose not to lean on imposter syndrome because imposter syndrome would try to, if I listened to imposter syndrome, when a lot of those publishers initially said, no, there's no audience for this race in the workplace is not an issue.
Minda (41:23): Again, they were trying to tell me that what I experienced, what I knew others were experiencing, wasn't true, but I knew the truth and we have to lean on the truth because America has been telling so many, lies for so long that we have to remind ourselves what the truth is. Right. And again, that truth is that I belong in every space that I enter, but not every space deserves to have me. And when I look at it from that perspective, I don't look at the nose as well. They said no to me, that's not the space I'm supposed to be in right now. And the final thing that I'll say is there's five major publishers are at the time when I was pitching the book, there were five major publishers two have like consolidated. And four of them said, no, and all it takes is one.
Minda (42:07): That's why building your team is important. Building your squad, who's speaking your name. Even the one my publisher that said yes, a lot of the people at the table were like, I don't know, but I had an editor in that room who wanted to work on this book because she was a white woman. She knew that the publishing world needed, needed this book. And so building those relationships are so important. And, I thought I was going to be the other thing that I'll say, and then I promise to be done is that when I went to sell, my second and third book, one of the publishers that said no to The Memo actually is one of those people who is working on my third book. So you just never know. And I'm glad that I did not let imposter syndrome get the best of me.
Rianka (42:51): Yes. And imposter syndrome, you know, we can have it as a negative connotation. And of course, it's just like, I definitely experienced that building a business. And like, you know, charging the fees or even my speaking fees, I'm just like, Oh my gosh, who am I to be charging this? And then I have my squad, girl, who are you not to be charging that? Do they know who you are? I was like ok, yes, you know what, I'm going to add a couple more you know, whatever to that. So, so yes. And if you feel nervous, so there's a difference between imposter syndrome and being nervous. If you feel nervous, that's good. But that means you care. Or at least this is what I tell myself, Minda. So let me know if I'm wrong, but when I'm nervous, like before I step on stage or before I'm interviewing you, right. Like I'm it's because I care. Not because I'm not supposed to be doing it.
Minda (43:45): Yeah. I mean, you said a word Rianka knowing the difference between, being nervous and telling yourself that you don't deserve to have this. There's a difference.
Rianka (43:55): Yeah. And so I appreciate, so appreciate our conversation today. And I, and I hope the listeners are listening to this with an open mindset and have learned something. And before I let you go, I do want to ask, you know, we're in Black History Month and History Maker Series, you're doing so much for the good of not only our community, but the world as a whole, let's be real. What is it that you want your legacy to be?
Minda (44:25): Wow, thank you. To be honest, I want my legacy to be that she made the workplace better than whoever found it. Right. And so I made the workplace better for Black women. So when we talk about workplace advocates, I hope that my name will be a part of the conversation.
Rianka (44:43): Simply put that is exactly what you're doing. So Minda, thank you for your time. Thank you for your advice. And thank you just for being you.
Minda (44:52): Thank you.
