Walking the DEI Walk in the Banking & Brokerage World

Samuel Palmer is the Managing Director and Head of Business Development and Strategy for Chase Wealth Management. A large part of his recent initiatives have focused on how to increase diversity within JPMorgan Chase, and support their diverse advisor base.

This season, we’ve talked a lot about how small business owners and RIAs can work toward incorporating inclusive best practices into their businesses. Hearing from Sam, we’re looking at these concepts and processes on a much larger scale.

There’s a lot to learn from Sam, who has developed unique mentorship and hiring programs successfully within JPMorgan Chase. His initiatives have led to an increase in their diverse Advisors.

Not only has Sam worked on developing these systems and processes at Chase, but he has also helped the organization zero in on how to educate their employees effectively about these DEI initiatives to ensure everyone is included. He’s created a business case for DEI business objectives - even in a bear market.

The momentum he’s built within JPMorgan Chase is impressive to say the least, and he’s sharing many actionable tips that professionals and business owners can start implementing today in their own organizations.

What You’ll Learn:

Developing business objectives around diversity, equity, and inclusion
How to incorporate DEI in your business budget
The importance of supportive leadership and dedicated resources
The best way to make inclusion deliberate
How to define clear objectives
Ways to create programs to grow your diverse team
How to maintain DEI initiatives in a bear market
Why diversity drives business results

Show Notes:

Episode Transcript

Rianka: 00:00 Sam, welcome to 2050 TrailBlazers.

Sam: 00:03 Thank you. Thank you for having me on the show, Rianka

Rianka: 00:06 Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for joining us. I know you are very busy in your role as Managing Director and Head of Business and Development Strategy for Chase Wealth Management. And, and I know you have multiple hats that you wear, in that role. So I just wanted to just say one thank you so much for making time to come on to our podcast and then also thank you so much for being one of the sponsors this year for 2050 TrailBlazers. It really means a lot to us

Sam: 00:38 And thank you Rianka for, giving me the platform to share some of our learnings and thoughts with, with a broader audience.

Rianka: 00:45 Yes. And so you called it, season four is all about best practices. So thus far this season we've had guests come on to share best practices, as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion, specifically within their RIA firms. So within small firms we've had, you know, speakers who are speakers and consultants to come and share best practices as it relates to, speaking, consulting. And now, which is another avenue that I'm happy we're able to tackle is the bank and, and broker, brokerage world where, as we know, and Sam probably you probably know better than I, there's a lot of red tape sometimes that you have to go through in order to get initiatives, you know, just off the ground. But Chase Wealth Management has been doing it. And so the one thing the listeners know about 2050 TrailBlazers is we only invite guests up here who not only talk the talk but walk it as well. And Sam, you guys have been intentionally walking the walk for the past couple of years. In the Chase Wealth Management, division, program specifically within your diversity and inclusion programs, which I know you're the chair of. And so what what led to this decision to say, Hey, we need to be more intentional about working with advisors and retaining advisors of color.

Sam: 02:30 So it started with an idea and a voice at the top. And I think that is very important for the success of our program where all the way from that CEO of our firm, you will hear in virtually every interaction Jamie talk about the importance of diversity and also very specifically you'll hear both him and T. Duckett, the CEO of Chase talk about the importance of working with black advisors specifically, which I think is very important and perhaps different than, than what other firms do in the sense of not being afraid to name the objective, to say that we are focusing on a diverse but also specifically black advisors. So it started there as an idea and then from there I think that there is a number of learnings that we, that we've had on what has made it work so far.

Sam: 03:35 I think number one, as you noted that diversity and inclusion programs that we have sit in the business for us. So it starts with the fact that diversity inclusion is a business objective. We explicitly have put it both last year and this year and next year as one of our top 10 business priorities that we've set for ourselves and all the diversity and inclusion programs report through to me as the Head of Business Development and Strategy for the business as opposed to sitting in the function somewhere outside. What that has allowed us to do then is to say, now that this is in business and has a business objective, we've set very clear goals and aspirations for how we want to fulfill this objective and we have dedicated resources to be able to deliver it just as you would any other business goal. So this is not done by a fraction of a person, you know, off the side of their desk.

Sam: 04:42 But we actually have dedicated a large number of people and financial resources specifically to driving diversity and inclusion, goals for us. So I have multiple teams, that work on multiple programs specifically focused on that. So the voice from the top and support from the top, programs sitting in the business, dedicated resources following that, we wanted to make sure that we are also very clear on how we're going to measure our progress. Because if you're not, if you're not measuring it, it's not going to happen. So we spent better part of the first few months developing very clear view of what we want to measure, how we want to measure, how we will define success, and creating reports that live within the, what we call that the big machine of the bank. Because if you create these reports and they just kind of sit there on the shelf and nobody's looking at them, you're not going to be helpful. But plugging those reports into the machinery of the bank, the day to day processes, so that they're used on everyday basis by all of the leaders in the field, by all of the executives, that's what starts to make it, to make it real.

ianka: 06:03 Yes. And wow. So what I'm hearing you say is you all made it a business objective. So this is not, you know, like, Oh, this is, this is a great initiative that we should do. But you all made it a priority, one of the top 10 business objectives for your institution, which is huge. And then what I'm also hearing you say is that you have identified intentionally leaders to lead up certain and specific avenues or, or roads to make sure that these objectives are met.

Sam: 06:41 That is right. And you know, this is not an initiative. This is a way for us to do business. So this is not a three month project. This is not a one year priority. This is an ongoing way of how we are doing business. So to your point, Rianka the leaders that we identified, that is their day job and they're senior individuals, as opposed to, again, a project that we are just running on the side.

Rianka: 07:09 I love that. Sam. This is the way we do business. I just need to, I need to, pause on that part right there. That is awesome. This is the way we do business. I love it. And so when something else that you, you mentioned too, I firmly believe it's, it's a wish. It's a dream unless you have identified goals and objectives, which you all have done. And then the second most important part is how do we measure success? And you mentioned that there were just a few, if you don't mind sharing, a few objectives that you have identified as a way to measure success. So what are some of those tangible objective that you all are seeking? For for 2019, you know, here we are rounding out 2019. What if, you know, you look back and say, all right, this has been a successful year because we've done X, Y, and Z.

Sam: 08:06 We've outlined a number of objectives to start with. So number one, we knew that we want to increase the diversity in terms of just the sheer number of diverse, ethnically diverse, female, and specifically black advisors that we have. But in order to do this, there, there are a couple of ways that you can go about it. One, obviously you can go and try to find a diverse advisors out there and hire them. And we are doing that and we have developed a number of very intentional paths to be able to identify those advisors. And to create a mechanism to be able to attract them and make ourselves more attractive to them. I'll talk about it in a second, but we also realize that diversity of advisors is a broader problem or a broader opportunity if you like, in the industry.

Sam: 09:09 So it's not just about hiring advisors, cause the zero sum game. I'll take yours, you will take mine. But it's also about creating them. So we've developed a program which we call the Advisor Development Program where we went out and specifically looked for individuals that may or may have never thought about a career in the financial services industry. And leveraging some of the research from the CFP Board from 2018 we identified what are some of the barriers that prevent diverse folks from becoming a financial advisor. The fact that many diverse folks may not have a Rolodex of quote unquote, their natural market rich friends, that they can reach out to, the fact that diverse folks, tell us that there afraid to join a commission-based job because since they don't have that natural market, they don't know how they're going to be able to support themselves.

Sam: 10:06 So we, and the fact that they may have never had an exposure to financial services, might have never thought about it. So the Advisor Development Program we've created, we intentionally designed it in a way to address these. So folks that come in are salaried so that they don't have to worry about their commission from day one. We make sure that in the program, which is between 18 to 24 months, we embed them into our banking ecosystem so that they can learn over time what it means to work with clients. That we have a very clear training program for them around financial advice and the support mechanism so that the inclusion part is also delivered. So that we don't just drop them in the ecosystem and, and let them fend for themselves. So going back to the objectives, we realize that if we want to increase the number of advisors, yes it's how do we hire, but also creating a program where we can grow new diverse advisors. And you know, I'm very proud to, to tell you that from that initial pilot, when we started, last year, last fall, we've been able to increase the number of folks in the program, 10X to this year and from this year to next year we're going 2X again. So we're growing exponentially between that original class and next year we would have had 20 times as many people as we have as we have started with. So this is something that we are very excited and very, very proud of.

Rianka: 11:51 This is this definitely amazing. I have a, a couple of things. One, we'll have a couple of questions. The first is it's great to know and to know these stats, right? And most of the time these stats kind of stay at the top and it's amongst the leaders, in a C-Suite that can, can see the growth happening, right? But it's how do you make sure this message is hitting all layers of, of your organization. That's my first question. And then the second one is, the inclusion piece, which I think is so important. I don't believe you can just hire black advisers and you say, okay, our job is done. I see that with a lot of organizations. I do not see that with yours, which is another reason why I want you to come up here and share these best practices because you guys are doing it right.

Rianka: 12:49 And one of the ways I know you guys are doing it right is because you have a, a forum or a program internally called the Black Leadership Forum, which I had the honor of, being invited to speak at, um, through one of your, again, another dynamic amazing leader. Jackie Campbell. She invited me to an outsider, right? To come in and speak to the leaders who are in this. In this leadership forum, to share, you know, just different best practices that I have so that they can stay encouraged and all of that. So I am a witness to what you all are doing, as, as an, as an outsider, so to say. And I think that is awesome. The inclusion piece and how do you, so it was, I guess my second question was more of a statement, but, so going back to the actual question, the first question was, you know, how, how are you, you all making sure this message is, is, is hitting all layers of your organization to help everyone stay encouraged?

Sam: 13:56 Yeah. Rianka you're, you're spot on. If you, you know, we realize that if you design a program and try to run it from the center and run it from the top, it will not be successful. It will fail as it is pushed and deployed in the organization. And especially if you try to do it at scale, not with 30 participants, but with 500 or a thousand, you need to be able to deploy it across all the levels of the organization. So there, there are a number of things that we, that we did. One broadly, we wanted to make sure that we have an organization wide discussion on diversity inclusion that touches across the board through everyone. So over the course of the past three years, actually, we started with uncomfortable conversations about diversity and inclusion from the top of the firm all the way down.

Sam: 15:00 So the way that we did it is we started with the most senior level of folks call it in the C-suite. Having those conversations with the next layer, then you would have the next layer of managing directors have those conversations with a team or a group of executive directors. So, for example, I had, a number of sessions with a group of 10 EDs each, not from my organization but actually more broadly from the firm where we would talk about diversity inclusion and some of the real and uncomfortable, questions that folks in the organizations would raise and would want to raise in a smaller setting that they wouldn't in the larger. And then in turn, those EDs would have that same type of conversation with groups of VPs. So it becomes natural and it's not just a top-down message from the CEO, but the entire organization is involved in the conversation.

Sam: 16:01 What that allows that is that is just priming, the change in culture, which takes time. It does not happen overnight. It does not happen over a quarter. It does not happen over a year. It is a slow process that you need to continue to engage the organization and discussion, which is why I said it's not a flavor of the month. The second thing to your point about, specifically for our programs, engaging the field and engaging folks across all of the, all of that, layers. There are a number of ways that we, that we do that. So number one in terms of reporting, our reports in terms of, who do we hire in terms of how those folks that we hire are performing, because again, yes, going out and hiring at the diverse advisors or, or training them is step one, but how are they actually performing?

Sam: 16:55 How do they feel that they're doing? So serving those advisers or participants of the program to make sure that they tell us how they feel. And having input from their immediate mentors or managers, branch manager a senior advisor that coaches them, a market director that coaches them. We would combine all of these elements at every layer of the organization. So yes, we consolidate it at the top for the CEO, but we would then come to the national level with our, national level directors and share it with them. We would go a layer lower to the regions and partner with, the regional directors and the, and our HR partners to make sure that we have that same conversation and the same results across number of faults we brought in, how they're doing, feedback from their fields, from their coaches and branch managers, survey at the regional level. And then we would ask the regional directors to have those same conversations with the folks in the markets. And in that way, you're able to make sure that the consolidated view is not just the consolidated view but that it's reflected all the way through, through, through the field.

Rianka: 18:16 That is amazing. And it sounds like you all have figured it out. Is there some, as you were building out the strategy for messaging and making sure that, all layers and, and, and everyone receives the same messaging and support, was there some bumps in the road that you can share in which you thought it was a good way to move forward, but because of maybe some feedback from your advisors that you decided to pivot?

Sam: 18:51 Yes, for sure. Many. And, it, it never is a, anybody that tells you it's a straight path, is lying. So, you know, one of the things that, for example, we have been experimenting with and I think that we still have an opportunity to get better. Is the true in-field person-to-person connectivity? So, let's say I hire an individual into a development program, I insert them in the branch. And the way that we run this program is that there's, those individuals for the first few months are bankers because we truly believe that. Since our advisors work in branches, you need to be able to understand how to work with clients across the board of their needs. And you start as a banker for a short period of time. And one of the things that we, figured in the early times that we can do better is how can we actually make sure that those bankers are truly getting the mentorship and support in every single situation, not just one-off, but across our over 5,000 branches.

Sam: 20:03 So at scale, how can they get that mentorship and support that we, that we promised them and how can we institutionalize it and not make it dependent on the individual. If Rianka happens to be in this branch, she gets all of the support from the branch manager and from the advisor. Some happens to be in another one and that, and that doesn't happen. So we've been experimenting with, you know, a number of ways we started with, well and I believe that it's going to happen and it didn't initially. We have deployed a specific, whenever we would introduce new participants to the program, we would actually have a, initial training call with all of the folks that provide the support mechanism to let them know that, Hey, you guys are going to get these participants. This is the objective.

Sam: 20:56 This is the expectation that we have from you. We made sure that there is an accountability mechanism with these reports that I mentioned. What, for example, our market director, branch manager has to fill in a short evaluation of the participants that they submit to us as part of the review process. That does that, requirement for them to fill that evaluation by definition forces them if they didn't do it themselves, to spend time with the participants. So there is no silver bullet, but what we needed to make sure and over time what has evolved is a multiple of actions that collectively create this, that create this accountability in the system from the top to the bottom. And then back to the top again,

Rianka: 21:49 There's no straight line, there's no silver bullet. And what I'm hearing you say is that you all are willing to take the time to learn from missteps, pivot and try it again because as we know with any type of program, right, it's, it's not going to be done correctly the first time while there is full and well good intention, that you want it to be successful without a hitch. We know life life comes with a lot of bumps in the road. And so, the same is true when it comes to building out a business objectives and, and programs and organizations as well.

Sam: 22:34 That's right. And you know, one of the learnings also that I think we have to be watchful for is that in the process of creating the conversation in the process of building diversity and making it a business priority, that we don't unintentionally turn away disenfranchise or in any other way, have a negative impact on the quote unquote majority. And, and that is a, that is a real concern, right? If across the firm we're having a conversation about diversity and black advisors, if across the firm, we are developing programs explicitly focused at developing those individuals, then if I am a white male, do I all of a sudden feel excluded? Do I all of a sudden feel that, wow, is this place no longer for me? Is there a risk of creating a negative intent where somebody can say, well, the only reason Sam got this job is because Sam is a black person. So that something that, is a very real danger in this process as well. And if you want to truly push, develop the envelope of diversity inclusion, you will run into that and you have to think ahead of how you're going to create the communication and how you're going to have the right, the right conversations with folks to be able to avoid that or to be able to deal with that when it happens. And it surely will,

Rianka: 24:12 Oh, for sure. For sure. And I've seen this on a smaller scale with initiatives that, we have done and you know, various communities, various, adviser communities, where we'll start a diversity scholarship specifically for, you know, people of color specifically for, yeah, specifically for people of color. And then there is some feedback I would say of just like, well, what about me? While there are other scholarships out there, because this one was intentionally created for diverse individuals, you know, there's always going to be someone out there to say, well, what about me? So how have you all, dealt with this and your organization for those white advisors or even white women who may come to you all and say, well, what about me?

Sam: 25:13 I wouldn't say that we have dealt with it, but I think we, we are and we are, you know, all learning through the process collectively because as you know, this is a, this is a conversation which I think is broader than just JP Morgan Chase or the financial industry. I think it's a national conversation. So one of the, one of the examples, for example, that, that was brought even even last week during our, one of our senior management meetings was that if a person gets promoted from one position to another and that person is diverse. And somebody in the team mentions it, you know, openly or mumbles under the nose, you know, Oh, there we go again, sound gets promoted because blah, blah and blah. How would we tackle it? And we had an open and honest discussion with the senior management team on what is the right way to react and our initial reaction, was well maybe the right thing to do is to explain to the team that this is the process, that the process is objective, that the reason this person is promoted or elected or selected is because they have fulfilled the following characteristics and here are the metrics, et cetera, et cetera, and what felt like the right thing to do initially we actually concluded that wasn't, because all of a sudden by explaining this process and and giving all of these facts, you're actually creating a justification. Which you wouldn't if this person was not a minority, you wouldn't go to the team and say, well, we promoted, you know Tom who is white and the reason we did is because we have a fair process and Tom really deserved it and here are his numbers. You wouldn't justify it. So we have to be careful. There is no right answer here, and now we're in the grey territory, right. At face value there's nothing wrong in, in explaining to everybody what the process is. But if you do it only in select situations only, when it's a woman, only when it's a minority individual or minority advisor, then all of a sudden you are creating a justification and you're actually perpetuating the problem. Not only that you're making the person who was promoted, selected, you're actually making them feel worse and bad. Right? You're actually playing into that narrative. So we actually decided that that might not be the best, the best approach. So the reason I'm mentioning this story is because the answer depends very much on the circumstance. And I think we are all learning through this process of how to evolve the conversations as we, as we go through them.

Rianka: 27:59 Yes. And that's, that's the only thing that we can do, right, is we try to think about certain scenarios and situations like you all just did and in your past leadership meeting. And, and I wholeheartedly agree with what you just said. I think if you start to justify every time someone who, who is a person of color, gets promoted, it's perpetuating the, the issue. And, and so I'm happy at the end of the story. This is the conclusion. Yeah.

Sam: 28:37 But you know, in terms of, in terms of things, things that are, that are, that are needed. You know, and I mentioned it in the, in the beginning a little bit and maybe we would like to expand on this idea that this is not an initiative. I think that if you talk the talk, you have to make sure that you walk the walk. And here's what I mean by that. If we said that this is our business priority and this is one of our key objectives for 2018, 19, 2020, but then when we have our business review of our CEO, we tacked this topic at the end, you know, in the last five minutes and we run out of time, then nobody's going to believe that. And actually your making a disservice to the entire process. So if you will say that this is a business priority, the talk, then you have to make sure that you explicitly treated it as such and given the right time, the walk. In the business reviews, when you're bringing the entire business to the CEO and you spending 20, you know, 20 minutes on the dollar results, are you also spending 20 minutes on diversity and inclusion? Are you not tacking that topic of the end of the meeting when you know you're going to run out of time? Is the CEO truly asking probing questions or you just kind of running through it and everybody sees that we not really serious about it. I think that's another thing that has really helped, in terms of making sure that when everybody else sees that this is something that we're serious about, then over time they also take it seriously.

Rianka: 30:17 Right. And you mentioned this is a business objective and I, and I, and I like how you keep highlighting that that it's not an initiative. It's a business objective. And as we know with every business objective, there has to be dollars behind it. There's a cost, right? And you all are saying this is worth the cost. This diversity and inclusion programs, the business objective, all of the objectives behind the, the DEI or DNI programs that you all have there. Something else also is that for the past, gosh, I think it's 10 years now. We have all experienced a bull market and initiatives like, or a business objectives like DNI or, or women, organization objectives, et cetera. They get funding. Unfortunately, as I do my research and just looking at historically what has happened with organizations in the past, you know, when we hit a bear market and we just don't know when that's gonna happen, dollars start coming off the table. And unfortunately the DNI business objectives somehow becomes one of the very first ones. How are you all working to make sure that if it happens or or when it happens, the bear market, that you all don't lose the momentum that you've been building over the past two to three years, and that you maintain and keep the dollars behind this business objective.

Sam: 31:57 Yup. So two part answer. One we explicitly are, we actually just now are going through or finishing our, our you know, annual budgeting process and everybody recognizes that, the bull market can last only so long and depending on who you ask, you know, in the call it 12 to 24 month period, probably the general expectation would be that the tables would turn, and recognizing that across the entire business, explicitly in DNI.

Sam: 32:38 We are not putting that on the chopping block if you like. So what I mentioned to you earlier in terms of for example, our diversity, our Advisor Development Program, our goal for next year is to double the number of participants that we've had this year. Even though we realize that there is a significant chance depending on who you ask, you're going to get different percentages. Well there is a significant chance that the market next year might, might work, might work differently. Now the reason we've been able to do that, this comes to the very first thing that I started our conversation with, is true belief and senior support. So, on the one hand, we know that diversity drives business results. We know that diversity helps with resiliency of the organizations actually studies, whether it's McKinsey, Harvard Business School, BCG, all these studies show that diverse teams and diverse organizations are not only more productive, not only more innovative, therefore leading to business results, but also more resilient in the time of hardship. They are able to pass through that, in a, in a, in a better manner. So we as an organization know that. But in addition to it, our senior leaders truly believe that. So what are its, you know, T. Duckett our CEO of Chase or whether it's Jamie, they consistently bring that message. And during our budgeting process, everybody realizes that that's the case and that support, allows it to, allows us to continue to grow these initiatives allows us to continue to support these initiatives as opposed to, again, flavor of the month and, you know, put them on the chopping block because we see a winter on the horizon.

Rianka: 34:37 This, again, is a best practice right here. So I hope for the leaders, who are listening. That may mirror a bank and or brokerage, organization, you know, Chase Wealth Management is doing something right. So hopefully you can, you know, take some of these best practices and then incorporate it into your organization because I mean, this is, these are the hard conversations that you have to have now. So you can be prepared for, for whatever happens, right.

Sam: 35:12 I very much realized that, you know, this is where, you know, we come from the, from we moved from the rainbow and rose colored glasses into, into the, the reality and the grays on an everyday, everyday business. This is a challenge that I'm sure a lot of, you know, firm leaders out there, will face. I have a limited amount of dollars or I anticipate that I will have a limited amount of dollars in, you know, the coming months. What do I, where do I take them down from? And it's very easy and it's very natural. In a way to say, well, you know, diversity inclusion, I'm not seeing immediate return on it. I will see an immediate return if I hire a person, I'm not going to see immediate return if I'm going to focus on making sure that the hire looks this or that way. Or at least that's a perspective that I think it's very easy to have.

Sam: 36:06 So I think it's a bit of a litmus test actually for an organization in a moment like that to test, that belief, whether we truly believe that this is a business priority, whether we truly believe that it is not a nice-to-have but a core element of how we are driving business and in, in that moment. I think that's where you, I'm not sure that there is a very simple answer. You should do this or you should do that. But I think it's a litmus test on where you as a leader and where your organization stands on the ladder.

Rianka: 36:42 Yes, absolutely. And you, and you mentioned something which is a great segue to go back to, as I mentioned in the beginning of our conversation, you're the chair of Chase Wealth Management, diversity and inclusion programs. And one of the programs, is, you know, the black leadership forum and then you also have the Advisor Development Program. Are there any other programs, that you want to share?

Sam: 37:07 Yeah. And, and maybe a couple of things I would add because the reason we have multiple programs is because, because the problem, or the opportunities multi-pronged. So the advisor development program grow net new advisors in the industry that hopefully will stay with us, but if not still a win for everybody. That diverse advisor recruiting, that one is very clear and obvious, recruit more to us then it's also, that's around growing the number of folks we have. But the reason we started the Black Leadership Forum in a number of other programs is because we wanted to make sure that it's not just about recruiting, but it's about ongoing and engagement and retention of these advisors to make sure that they stay with us and that they are productive and that they feel that JP Morgan Chase is the best place that they could be.

Sam: 38:05 Because if you miss that second portion, then you will spend a lot of resources and a lot of energy to bring folks in and train them. And then you're going to have a hole in the bucket, you know, on the other side with bad experience, folks not being productive, folks not enjoying their, their work with us. And then, and then leaving. So that second component, around creating the engagement and the retention done amongst others with the Black Leadership Forum, is, is very, is very critical. The, the, the couple of, of other things that we do as an institution, maybe very briefly, one is, Currency Conversations that we started, earlier this year. And this comes from a belief, again, that we hold as a firm, that our senior leaders, hold, whether it's a, a Jamie or Mellody Hobson who's on our board around making sure that we bring financial education to individuals out there and in particular to, to minorities or diverse, diverse folks.

Rianka: 39:15 And if I can real quick, Sam, shout out T. Duckett for that. I, you know, I know this is a part of your Advancing Black Pathways initiative, which is consumer facing. So I just want to highlight right now, not only are you all from the multi-prong approach that you all are doing, you're looking internally within your advisors and not only recruiting but retention, you know, the inclusion piece. But you're also looking externally as well and saying, okay, well this is what we're doing for our advisers. We're, we're building them up. How can we also look back and, and build up our community as well? And that's what I see what you all are doing with Currency Conversations. And I had the privilege to attend one of the conversations, over the summer in Harlem and it was amazing, Sam. It was amazing. And I'm happy to see that it's still ongoing and you guys are going across the United States. And it's making a huge impact.

Sam: 40:18 Glad to hear. And I'm, and I'm glad that you were, you were able to, to attend it. Being financially literate is critical. And Current Conversations are focused in particular, on, on black women around the country. And we believe that it's critical because it underpins so much more in terms of an individual's ability to participate in the society an individual's ability to be able to contribute, an individual's ability to be able to over time, take care of their family, obviously to be able to, retire. So if you don't start with those basics again, one-on-one in every branch in every hour in different parts of the country, then you cannot expect to change the broader, broader fabric of the, of the society. And that's something that, we very much, very much believe in. You may have seen, a letter signed by a number of CEOs including, Jamie Dimon where, you know, he spoke about the fact that we believe that our obligation as a firm is not only to drive shareholder value, but to drive stakeholder value, and stakeholders include beyond shareholders, other parts of the society, including our customers, including anyone that is impacted by what we do as a firm.

Rianka: 41:49 Wow. Thank you so much for sharing all of that with us, Sam. It's, it's great to see again what you all are doing internally for your advisors, but also how you are looking externally as well. And figuring out ways to lift up the community. Financial literacy, wealth literacy is a big component of being able to be a productive citizen, you know, in America. And so again, you all are, are doing a huge part in that and being trailblazers. So thank you very much. So I know you're a very busy person, so I just want to say thank you so much for being a guest here on 2050 TrailBlazers season four as we talk and share best practices. Before I let you go, is there anything else you want to share with us?

Sam: 42:42 I just wanted to say thank you. I think you Rianka are doing a phenomenal job in raising these important, often complicated and, and challenging topics, and connecting folks, leaders, ideas across, across the country. So thank you very much for doing that. Thank you for taking the time to do it. And thank you for allowing me your platform to be able to share our thoughts. Look, we are testing, we are learning. We don't have all the answers for sure. And I hope that when we talk six months from now or a year from now, I will be able to tell you that there were things that we were doing just wrong and we've learned from that. But in the meantime, I am happy to share, you know, my thoughts with anyone else that would like to listen.

Rianka: 43:34 Awesome. Well thank you so much. We'll make sure we'll put information about the Currency Conversation, the Advisor Development Program in our show notes. Remember, you can go to 2050trailblazers.com look for Sam's episode and we'll provide some more information there so it can be at your fingertips. So thank you so much, Sam, for joining us.

Sam: 43:56 Thank you.