Episode Transcript

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Rianka: 00:00:02 Katie, Andrew, welcome back to 2050 TrailBlazers.

Katie: 00:00:05 Hi, thanks for having me back

Andrew: 00:00:08 Hey Rianka, thanks for having me back as well.

Rianka: 00:00:09 I am really, really excited for you two, to be closing out season two on, as we chatted about allyship. Andrew, you kicked us off and you helped us understand the true depth of what it means to be an ally, you know, helping us define it. Um, and Katie, you helped us close out season one a with your insight on, you know, what it truly means to build a inclusive environment in, in organizations and firms, uh, how to build out, um, and just identify ways that we may be or I guess ways to look through a different lens in, in, and hiring practices and looking at the job descriptions and just very so insightful. We made it two episodes.

Katie: 00:01:10 Because I talk a lot

Rianka: 00:01:10 no, not because you talk a lot because you have really great insight, girlfriend. And if you missed it, please check out season one, episode eight and nine with Katie. Uh, it was so, so good. And also, um, if you are just tuning in and you have not had a chance to hear Andrew's episode, please check out episode one. And with that, you know, if there are new listeners who may not be familiar with 2050 TrailBlazers or have heard you speak before, I would love for you two, to just dive and truly into, you know, what you do and your background because you two are not financial advisors, which I love because now you're able to help us in the financial service industry, look through a different Lens, yours, and help us gain insight on what it truly means to build a very inclusive environment. So Katie, let's start with you. Um, you know, just share with the listeners, you know, who you are and, and, and the value that you are bringing to your company.

Katie: 00:02:20 Sure. Thank you again for having me. I am a partner and employee experience strategist for Future Work Design. And what Future Work Design is, is we help organizations take that first courageous step to prepare for the future of work. And we do that through helping organizations align their strategy, customer experience, employee experience. And we do all of that through an equity lens, and so my particular area is employee experience and so my background is in HR. I am a long time, I won't say how many years, a lot of years in HR, um, and that's where I really cut my teeth and started to become really passionate about how work can be for employees. So that's what I do.

Rianka: 00:03:13 Yeah. I find it fascinating, especially when we first met, employee experience strategist, help help us define that a little bit more for us. Who may be like it sounds cool, but what the heck is that?

Katie: 00:03:31 Exactly. It sounds like one of those made up job titles. So yeah. So when we think of traditional HR we think of policies, procedures and kind of rules and regulations of an organization and that is an important part of the employee experience, but that's very narrow. When we look more broadly about what is your day at work look like? What does your life cycle at work look like, from the time you first hear about this company till the time you leave, that is your employment experience. And when we think about that, the way we think about the customer experience that every touch point matters, then we can look more broadly than just those policies and procedures. So a lot of people will reach out to me with an HR question, but really what they're asking is like, how do I feel more connected to my organization? And so I help them with both.

Rianka: 00:04:24 Thank you. Oh yeah. We're going to get into some good convo today. And Andrew, um, please share with us, you know, your background, what you do, and you have some exciting things happening in your world.

Andrew: 00:04:40 I sure do, yeah. First, I just want to extend my gratitude again for having me back, Rianka. Katie, always a pleasure to hear sort of your experience and be excited for our conversation. So I work currently as an organizational consultant focusing specifically on leadership development through a lens of diversity, equity and equity and inclusion. I come into this conversation with a background in community organizing and multiple levels of education, higher education, lower elementary, um, and most recently graduated from the Harvard Graduate School of Education where I studied human development psychology, focusing on adult learners. So leadership development, identity development with adults. In a cross-sector, um, and so also currently based in Chicago, Illinois and call Detroit home. So all factors that are certainly impacting how I'm entering this conversation.

Rianka: 00:05:31 Yes. Thank you so much. It was something that you mentioned as well and I want to dive a little deeper. You mentioned identity development. I think that's very true to our conversation today as it relates to culture, at least I think so as far as from an identity perspective and making sure that we're bringing ourselves into a culture and environment that's accepting of us. What, what do you mean by identity development and who are you helping with that?

Andrew: 00:06:03 Yeah, thanks for that question. What will first who, who are, who are we helping or working with? I think this work of diversity, equity, inclusion impacts everyone, right? Albeit in different ways. And so what I mean by identity development, I'm specifically referring to social identities, which are things like race, gender, socioeconomic class, sexual orientation, um, things that are sort of identity markers that impact how we navigate and experience the world through interpersonal relationships, how we see ourselves and sort of larger ideologies and systems that impact those folks with these identities and in various ways. And so for me, coming into this conversation, I know we're on a podcast and um maybe not accompanying with a picture, but for me, I think very much my identities as a, a white working class, CIS gendered male, very much impact how I interpret, experience the world, um, and come into this conversation sort of honing, you know, what does it mean that identity is not just folks who are historically marginalized or carry identities that may not be as representative represented in organizations. And what does it mean to also experienced the world in a way that might feel more normal and have privilege?

Rianka: 00:07:25 Yes. Andrew, I'm snapping over here. Love it. And so, thank you for that. Because something that we constantly share on on this platform is that diversity has many facets, identity has many facets and many layers. And so thank you for just so nicely explaining that and you know, in a different way that, you know, I hope that is received, um, for, to the listeners. So thank you for sharing. You know, what it is that you all do. So now the listeners can know why I think it's important to have you two on this episode wrapping us up for season two. As you know, we truly, truly a dove really deeply into allyship. We had different guests on just explaining what they're doing from an organizational standpoint, what they're doing from a personal standpoint. Um, yeah, just saying, Hey, yeah, I, I know I have privilege and here's what I'm doing to be an ally.

Rianka: 00:08:33 Um, and as Andrew mentioned in episode one, moving from it being a noun into a verb and you know, it's, the dynamic it's not static and what we are doing every day practicing it. What I've experienced over this season is, again, this, this podcast is honestly sparking conversation in a sense of an, in an, in an awesome way of people are now reaching out saying we're listening. We, we, we get it. I think we're moving away from why diversity, equity and inclusion is important to how, how do we build, how do we build a, uh, firm an organization that is inclusive, how do we build a firm where we're being very aware of the cultures that are present here and we are, um, you know, being showing our gratitude for people, bringing that forward and, and giving that to our organization. Katie, you shared with us in season one. I can't remember if it was episode eight or nine about building your network authentically and I think we can move to the how, like how do we build, you know, a firm of more diverse people, um, through authentic, authentically building our network. So is there anything that you want to share or kind of reiterate of how we can all build our network authentically?

Katie: 00:10:11 Yeah. Um, so the goal really is to go, if you're a white CIS-gendered person to go find a black friend, and then say ok I've diversified my network. I, I now have more people of color in my life that's really tokenizing. Really. It's about connecting with communities, really integrating yourself in a community the way you would authentically in any community, like not showing up there is a way to examine or watch people, but to interact with people, try new restaurants, go to a new church. Um really authentically connect with other people who are outside of your traditional community. And that is like, and you'll hear me say these kinds of things a lot is all about true connection and intentionality, but not, not tokenizing. Andrew, you have better ways?

Andrew: 00:11:16 No, certainly not better ways, you hit it right on the head. It just makes me think about sort of that relationship of representation versus tokenization. Right? I appreciate your, your naming the example of, you know, as, as a white CIS-gendered person, it's not a matter of oh I need to go seek out people of color necessarily and, there is learning in that. So it's this, it's this tension between having a diverse organization and community and being able to recognize what are the barriers to the tapping into that potential. Yeah,

Katie: 00:11:47 it's hard. It is hard to put yourself into new communities, it's hard to recognize, to look at your network and say and your people and say, wow, we are all very similar. It's very homogenous. So it's really about that, that courageous first step of recognizing who you surround yourself with and being intentional about making a change,

Rianka: 00:12:15 sticking with how, how do we continue to build out our firms, organizations that are representation really of what America is moving more towards it's that mosaic. Again, Andrew using your words from episode one. It's really a mosaic of different cultures, different races, different, um, you know, sexual orientation preferences, um, and making it more inclusive. Another question that I am starting to receive is again, with the how is. All right, well we want to build or create some sort of diversity initiative in our firm and you know, to help you two. Let me explain that for me, what I see if I want to just try to make this as easy as possible two types of organizations or firms in the financial service industry. There's these big organizations which are like the broker dealer firms who are the, you know, a thousand plus firms, um, who probably have, they probably have a person that has a title of D&I officer or a chief diversity officer and so they have the budget, they have a budget where someone's sole responsibility is just this.

Rianka: 00:13:36 And then there's the RIA space, the registered investment advisory space where having 20 people in your firm is considered large. And typically with those 20 people is probably three to four main senior advisors. Uh, and they're probably wearing 20 hats. One of them could be being an HR person or that HR type of person where their responsibility may, may be, um, you know, or they may start to be approached with, um, you know, we want to build this diversity initiative and how, and you know, I, I don't know if they have, are fully equipped to kind of take on this type of initiative. So what, from a how perspective, again, it's just like, I think the big organizations, um, they, they, they have the capacity to kind of like do some trial and error because they have that one dedicated person. But in the RIA space it's small. It's, you know, it's, it's a lack of staff, it's a lack of time and now it's like, oh, now you want to do this diversity initiative, right? And so is it can get the short end of the stick. So how can we approach this?

Andrew: 00:14:59 I think one, that's a really valuable question, right? Because you see where a lot of sectors are moving in the direction of hiring, you know, the chief diversity officers and folks with comparable positions. And I, I want to commend that I think like identifying like drivers of this work and accountability. I think it's really important and um, I lean on my, you know, sort of my training as a community organizer that defines power as organized people and organized money, and ultimately I believe that this work is about changing the conditions of power in organizations. And so what does that translate to? What's the, how, and I think about, somebody told this to me, I'm sure I'm that equity lives in your budget and your calendar, and if equity isn't showing up in where you spend your money right in the form of a chief diversity officer maybe and more holistically, are you really doing the work and throughout your organization more than just the one person who was supposedly driving or accountable for the work.

Andrew: 00:16:00 Um, are you all spending your time and is it on your calendar to really focus on this work in general? And what I mean by this work is, are you, are you taking stock of, of diagnosing the problems of diagnosing your culture, of, of building relationship as Katie spoke to, have those relational networks, right? So, um, it makes me think a lot about, um, yeah, where, where equity lives. Um, and how that's certainly one step of a much larger longitudinal process. The other thing that comes up for me is thinking about this sense of urgency that also accompanies the hiring of folks in these roles. Right? And this work at large. I often see in my experience the expectation that, okay, we're going to unleash a two year ambitious robust plan. Sure. And this work is going to be longer than two years. This is ongoing, this is, sorry to break it to us.

Andrew: 00:16:55 I have to remind myself all the time. This work is continuous and long and will last long beyond us. So I, I think I sometimes I feel like even my own work is often short sighted in understanding that this is going to take time, um, and it's, it's not such a quick fix and I think there ought to be a, a deeper emphasis on recognizing that this work is not just as simple as hiring someone and we'll take care of this and a bottom line and um, you know, in the next year or two. But this is really a continual that ought to be embedded in all that we do, especially our calendars and our budget.

Katie: 00:17:36 Wow. I wrote that phrase down, Andrew because that is maybe the best, phrase, that equity lives in your budget and. Yeah, I would like to kind of piggyback off of what Andrew said, when he was talking this light bulb started going off in my brain. I see two things really popped into my mind. One, you need to be very clear about the why and the what of why you're doing this, why do you care about diversity, equity and inclusion? Organizations sometimes just say we care, but like what are you trying to achieve by saying that, and what are we willing to commit to Andrew's point, time and money, and what are we willing to change and not change? That is one of the things I find in my work. Organizations say that they are very committed to. EDI, DI, everybody says it a little different. I usually say EDI, um, they're very committed to equity, diversity, inclusion, but they're not necessarily willing to change their pay practices or their career ladders or their hiring practices and so being very intentional about like this, this journey may open up, um, information about your organization and are you willing to make changes to the organization and some and be really clear about what, what you're willing to do and not to do. And the second thing that came to mind when Andrew was talking was that the difference between reactionary work and aspirational or forward-thinking. A lot of times organizations, will focus on equity, diversity, inclusion because of a moment within the organization in which this was highlighted.

Katie: 00:19:27 So somebody notified the company of harassment or somebody said something inappropriate in a meeting and we're like, oh man, we have to do something. Or they're people look around and realize there are no people of color or women on the leadership team. And these reactionary moments sometimes give us a very different result than an organization that is doing it because of an intentional focus for how they want to operate in the future. So to be mindful of like which place you're coming from and, and what that might be, what kind of energy that's bringing into this practice.

Rianka: 00:20:03 I love that. The what? Um, and what's come into mind is so a few people have reached out to me and um, it's one person I'm thinking about in particular um this person and I'm trying to be as incognito as possible because our industry is really small. Our profession is really small. But, so this person who reached out and I think, and I hope they're listening because I think what will help move the conversation forward as far as starting a EDI or a DEI initiative in your firm is being very clear about the what and making sure everyone is on board with the what or maybe everyone isn't, but you know, and, and maybe that's where the work comes in on like this is what is important to help bring more inclusivity and culture into the firm. And then also, uh, some of the questions I have is like, like in my brain is like firing on all cylinders right now. Do we have the structures in place for these types of initiatives? Right. And, and then also something else that is happening is, is that the, the folks who do wear the HR hat in these small firms, not the large firms, but in the small firms, they're pushing these ideas away about diversity. Like, oh, we don't want to touch on that. That's an HR issue. Um, which is very, um, I'm shocked. I'm hearing that.

Katie: 00:21:43 Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. Also, it doesn't surprise me when HR does it itself. And I think you and I talked about this, that HR can seem like the panacea, the solve, for equity, diversity, and inclusion, and what can happen is it just kinda gets the, can gets kicked around. Nobody wants to own it because it's fought, it deals with our own personal identities and it becomes a real emotional topic for people. And so people will say, well, this is HR's job to take care of this. And HR will say, well this is, we're not gonna really get into this unless it has to do with laws and policies and procedures. And that kind of gets moved around. And so really it's about shared ownership to Andrew's point earlier, about the community of employees coming together and owning this together, um, and not putting it necessarily on HR but not necessarily outside of HR either.

Rianka: 00:22:39 Yes. And, but what if HR thinks it should stay in HR? I'm thinking again about these small firms, um, and, but they're not doing a good job, you know? And so it's that shared trust. And again, I'm thinking about this example where the person is going to HR and just saying, hey, we want to start this initiative, here are some ideas and the ideas this person is sharing with me. I'm like, Whoa, that is amazing. Like those are really great ideas. Can I share it on the podcast? Um, so that other small RIA firms can get these sort of ideas. Where is that, these huge initiatives, but it's being more culturally aware, like bringing in different types of food every month and just having a conversation around the origin of this food and because they get catered food on a monthly basis. And I was like, that's, it's nothing that they're changing their budget is not increasing or decreasing. Um, and, and it's something that they already have in place where they can. They're just adding a lens of culture to it and was told no. And so I'm just, I'm like scratching my head on that one.

Katie: 00:23:48 What I hear when you're talking about this as like this hope for diversity, but that's not necessarily the same as this inclusion. So having a, having access to cultural foods and talking about different cultures is a great entry point in to having those conversations and if there's barriers to that, that's so unfortunate because that to me is that's just a small step one. The real work is about the systems in your organization that are inequitable and so you know, a lot of organizations will start with we're going to have a diversity team and we're going to, um in the lunchroom, we're going to have food from Asia and Africa and then that's kind of it. Or they have a big celebration for black history month, but that is not true EDI work in your organization that is just celebrating culture. But true work is like what about our employment practices? What about our leadership team? What about the way we talk to our customers? What about the way we terminate employees is deeply rooted in white culture or deeply broken and that we don't see a retention of black employees. That is the bigger more meatier problem and that requires HR support but also deeply requires leadership support. Sometimes it requires facilities, report or um support. It requires everybody to like be working on that and not just one department.

Andrew: 00:25:33 I love, everything that you just shared, Katie. I want to go back to something that you posed, a question that you posed before of asking what are we willing to change or not change? I love that question because I think that we don't spend enough time there. Um, and I may, I think I said this on episode one, but it really struck me when I first heard the phrase that people aren't afraid of change, they're afraid of loss, and to actually spend time saying, okay, to change our hiring practices, what are folks losing? And maybe it's even a sense of stability or confidence or expertise in their field. Their maybe a totally new way of doing things and stepping into some imagination or some imperfection might be really hard and speak to some of our insecurities. And um, inabilities to really make some of those changes. And so I think, you know, we all know this and I think that there's been certainly a movement to hold this more fully in organizations, but knowing that we bring our whole selves to work, right, there's not the, uh, even ability to say check that stuff at the door.

Andrew: 00:26:40 And so I think about to, um not only focusing on what the initiative is, right? Even if it is changing hiring practice or establishing you know different systems in place, um, I really think that the process is important and that's something that we say a lot. We know. But I, I say that because I'll give the example of a. When I was working at a nonprofit a few years back, uh, we wanted to create a more belongingness and stronger staff culture and relationship within about 25 person organization, good things, right? Then, um, our leadership and particularly our president in the organization said, we're going to have a Wednesday morning meeting the first Wednesday of every month. We're going to have that meeting. And that's going to be our time in which we're going to build community and relationships. And initially even I was like, great, I want to come together. That's great.

Andrew: 00:27:32 However, those meetings actually still retained the power and hierarchy that had existed in all of our other meetings. They were led by our leadership team. There was no power sharing. There was no informing what that agenda was. Um, they were really segmented and even the process was really top down. Um, and so if we're even doing things that might speak to more belongingness or connection or inclusion and the decision making and process of getting there is still really hierarchal or at folks, um, I think that's still kind of problematic. So I think just really think about, um, you know, Katie, you mentioned white culture and I think that that's something that we may shy away from and we can speak to why um talking about this normative, you know, sort of dominant culture that doesn't make room for other ways of being is. But just briefly, I think there's, there's elements of that, of this fear of open conflict or this either or thinking, especially in regard to we have to do the work or we don't, right. Um, or has to look like this or we don't do it at all. And I think those elements are, I think really important to talk about

Rianka: 00:28:40 snapping over here. Right? Two snaps. I loved the either or thinking I want to talk about that. I want to talk about white culture. I want and like truly defining what that means. Um, and diversity as we know, um, that word in a Harvard Business Review that we shared in episode one that even the word diversity raises the blood pressure of white men and there's, I'll re-link that study and the why's behind it and I'm, and I'm starting to feel like as we become a more open and, and non code-switching society and truly speaking up and saying white culture, people are having their blood pressure being risen as well. Um, so let's I, there's so much I want to talk about, but let's, I, in for our industry for, for the financial planning profession I think it's really important to understand what white culture mean and what normalizing white culture means. And that narrative of the power shift or, or the or the paradigm shift in power that people perceive is happening when we talk about inclusion

Katie: 00:29:53 And the definitions of diversity, inclusion and equity do matter. People kind of throw those terms around as if they are the same thing.

Rianka: 00:30:00 Let's define that Katie.

Katie: 00:30:05 Andrew, do you want to, you're in the social justice field. Do you want to define that a bit better? Because I, what I use is this, I'm Verna Myers says beautifully, diversity is being invited to the party, but inclusion is being asked to dance. And I love that, very simplistic, very visual cue. But I'd love for somebody to go deep on what those three terms mean.

Andrew: 00:30:28 Verna Myers work is really powerful. I love her work. She has a great ted talk too, um about walking boldly towards your biases, right? And what that means. Yeah. I love, I love her work. I also that would've been, I think I would have pulled that same, that same quote. I love that. It also makes me think about who's doing the inviting to dance and actually spending time, at what are, why are folks not feeling invited and what's preventing folks from inviting other. We could just ask those questions all day. Um, I think too. Yeah. Katie just want to really, yeah, snaps and underscore that point in regard to, I think and Rianka you said it too, differentiating what these words mean is often seen as really synonymous, right? Even the acronym DEI or IED or whatever you wanna call it. Um, I think to my shorthand or how I think of it as, so diversity is difference being represented.

Andrew: 00:31:19 Um, equity is given those differences of identity and representation. People have particular needs, um, based on the histories and experiences that have been associated with those identities. And then inclusion is really a, the process of naming and making room for multiple ways of being, as seen as valid. Right? In that I think all of those being a process requires both learning, you know, what is equity, what is inclusion, what is diversity and also unlearning of what has been some of the barriers and normalized practices. So I'm sure you know, other folks could go way deeper and I, we could even supply in a couple of resources there differentiating those. But um, does that make sense?

Rianka: 00:32:03 Yes.

Katie: 00:32:05 And it's so like, thank you so much, Andrew, because that to me is so critical, especially for those HR folks that might be listening is that we often, you know, you can probably remember the powerpoints where it's like all these different color hands on top of each other and that was that people just focused, focused on diversity. Let's just bring in brown and black faces, bring in women of color into the organization and then racism is essentially solved and we know that is not how that works because we weren't focusing on those other two important words and the meaning behind those words, which is equity and inclusion. So once these people are in the organization, how are you supporting them? How are you listening to them? How are you ensuring that they have equal access to, um, to power, to good pay, to resources that that is the critical part. And so for me, I always like to have organizations. They've figured that out, that figure that part out first. Still of course, bring people of color and women into your organization. But do not expect them to solve the problem within your organization. Solve that problem so that they're not the ones having to do that. And that's, that's essentially the problem I have seen with diversity is we are expecting the people from marginalized communities to just show up and thus the problem be solved.

Rianka: 00:33:40 Like what does that look like and something that's come into mind. And I have pinned white culture so we will get back to that. But something that has come into mind and something that is embedded in me is something that a young woman of color said at a diversity summit. The CFP Board, Center for Financial Planning, had a diversity summit in October, it was the first of its kind in our profession. It was phenomenal event. I'll put a link up because there's video of the talks. We had kind of like a TED talk type of event. I spoke, Phoung Loung, uh, uh, Louis. Um, and it was, it was phenomenal the, those talks and um, we then we had panels in the afternoon and then just exactly what you're saying, Katie, this young woman, she stood up and she said a diversity at what cost. And, and this is something I sit on a couple of diversity advisory group boards and that is something that is always going to stick in my mind.

Rianka: 00:34:54 Um, when I have a seat at the table, what she said will always be present. I've all, and this is the, one of the reasons why I started this podcast is because we are trying to bring women people of color into this profession. Yes we can increase the numbers, but how do we keep them, how do we retain them? And then it goes to diversity at what cost. Like we are bringing in these black and brown young, very impressionable professionals and putting them into firms where they may be the first person of color and just like you said, Katie, they are the ones being expected to fix this, whatever it is. And I'm putting it in quotation marks because depending on what region and what where you live in the United States, it may look different.

Katie: 00:35:51 I always really struggled with this particular point because we often, when we think of diversifying an organization, we usually do think about these new employees coming in and what can sometimes be forgotten about is all of the employees that are there and the ones who have left and what, what were they yelling and screaming for, asking for, not yelling and screaming literally, but you know, mentally when they were leaving, like we often place the blame for lack of retention, um, on the people and not the policies, procedures that pushed them out. And so, I mean, I don't even really know what my point is.

Rianka: 00:36:37 No, no, let's stay on that right there Katie, that was a good point. We oftentimes play the lack of retention on the people that leave instead of the policies. And so that goes into the institution, whole systematic issues that has been plaguing our industry for so many years that nobody wanted to talk about

Katie: 00:36:55 It's not just about the hiring process and bringing these people in and making sure we're a better organization for those people. It's like, what have we done to the people who have left the organization? What were they asking for? That we have said, oh, this is just a complainer. This person makes everything a race issue or you know, there's so often where particularly women of color will come into an organization. They will get, Yay, we've diversified. We're so excited. Um, she highlights a problem within the organization. The organization says, Nope, actually you're the problem and she pushes and pushes until she finally decided this is not worth it and I'm leaving or she gets fired. And that, that line is very common amongst organizations. Even organizations who say they are really focused on equity, diversity, inclusion, and so they can sometimes turn their heads to the people who are saying what the problems are and focus on, well, let's just bring in new people. It's a weird thing. I don't know how I really figured out how to fix that either, but it's something that I think about a lot

Andrew: 00:38:22 Yeah, I'll chime in here. If only to share, I think about you know a lot of things in the news as of late, and we can go down that rabbit hole. But I think to myself, and maybe it's over simplified, but part of me just wants to say, I think we need to just believe people. What I mean in that is what we're speaking to about, you know, people of color and women and Trans folk and other people hold marginalized identities in our organizations and when they leave and they're citing, you know, I've been a part of organizations where folks will write organization wide emails saying this is why I'm leaving because of the racial discrimination that I faced here. Right? And then it just goes by the wayside and I also pair that with hearing from organizational leaders. We don't know what to do or we don't know how to respond to that. Right? Or we'll just ignore it in total. And I just think about this disregard and minimization and this dissonance from actually listening to folks.

Andrew: 00:39:13 And I just, it makes me think about when I say we, I speak on, you know, as, as a white person, right? As a man, right? To say, to actually listen would mean that that would interrupt my feeling of like equilibrium. Right? To really believe that. And I think that's why it maybe a simple phrase I think really grappling with what does it mean to just believe people, right? In their experience, right? I think that there's power in, I'll say for my own self trying to step into saying I don't know and I'm going to try to find out. I think that those are simple practices. I think of customer service. I used to work at the Detroit Zoo and when people would come up to me and they would say, Hey, do you know where this white polar bear stuffed animal is? Let's just say that, I managed the a gift shop represent, shout out Detroit Zoo.

Andrew: 00:40:03 My answer wouldn't be, I don't know. And walk away, right? I would say, I don't know, but I'm going to find out. I'm going to ask someone. I'm going to lean on some help. I'm going to recognize, um, that I may not have the answers and I'm going to do something about it. Right? And so I think that oftentimes we may settle at that seems really complex if we even recognize that it exists at all. Um, and I think that there's the need for organizations at whatever level they feel, um, they're able to contribute to really seeking out folks and organizations. And there are people doing this work, right, that are more than ready and equipped to help support, personalize and just help build the capacity of organizations to really sit with what they're experiencing. So, um, maybe maybe general high level, but I think that there's power in just even just naming and owning. I don't know. I'm gonna find out,

Katie: 00:41:08 And I think what you said about just believing people is a kind of radical act.

Andrew: 00:41:08 Right

Katie: 00:41:08 I think about my work a lot in, that as an HR person there's many times where I've had a complaint, it might not even be a very serious complaint. It might be a very, you know, very small. But I have, can dismiss it thinking, oh, that doesn't fit with what I understand that this person or that seems that doesn't seem like a big deal. And, and I can think of moments in my career where I have done that. And I think back like, what if, what if I had just believed that person. We've all done this in our personal lives where we just don't like, oh, that seems it doesn't seem like a big deal. Um, or, or maybe it feels like it might be attack an attack on us or something that we've created or done. Um, and so it's really hard to, well, it's not hard to believe somebody.

Katie: 00:42:05 It's really hard to take action once you believe, believe them and usually believing them requires you to do something. And so that's why we can often dismiss it. And so, you know, I have, I've had to take a deep long look at myself and my practice to just lead with a, a generous assumption of generosity and that people are telling me about their true experience and that I need to make change when I hear things. Now that doesn't always mean, especially in HR, that every single thing that you hear is going to be factual and you can't treat. You can't treat every moment, every employee complaint and be reactionary about it. But you do need to listen to those voices and say like, what is the motivation here? Why would this person not? Why would they be motivated to not tell me the truth? You need to like put your investigative hat on and lead with assumption of generosity in that moment

Andrew: 00:43:02 And just to quickly add, Katie, I think was one of the first things you said in our conversation today you used the word courage. I think that, that is a really courageous act to do just that as I just wanted to offer that. I think that element is well, it's courageous to really believe and respond and sit with people's truths, right, and not project our own value systems on to what we deem as important or not.

Katie: 00:43:28 I could be not to turn ourselves into the victim when we hear somebody is being victimized, and that is often what happens, in these questions our these conversations about EDI is that somebody says, I'm feeling attacked because my race, and then the person says, well, I'm feeling the attacked because you called me racist.

Andrew: 00:43:51 Let's hang out there

Rianka: 00:43:51 Let's talk about that.

Andrew: 00:43:55 Rianka I know that you had white culture, I think this might pivot us back toward toward that. And Katie, what I'm hearing you speak to is, I mean one is another element of that which is this defensiveness and this insistence on personalizing and making this stuff inequity or discrimination exists only interpersonally and about who we are as people and not just our actions. Right? It this either or again, of I'm a good person or I'm a bad person, right. And to actually sit with I, I've had to struggle my way through this and still do a lot around. Um, what does it mean to. I like to think of myself as a good person that has also been brought up as a white person in the United States and have soaked up, absorbed, you know, some of the stuff around racism. Right? And so there are things and actions that I will do that are racist, right? Does that mean I'm a bad person?

Andrew: 00:44:48 I'd like to think not. Right. And do I perpetuate and contribute to some of these things? I do. And I think really sitting with Jay Smooth, he's a, he, he does a lot of work with a publication called the Race Forward. They're phenomenal and he has a, a, I think a Ted talk even about normalizing or at least differentiating, calling somebody for the example of using around race, calling somebody a racist versus what you said was racist. Right. And even just that distinction between our actions and who we are as people I think is really important and difficult often to grasp and he, he offers to normalize it as something as simple as, you know, you have spinach in your teeth, right? If we are able to normalize this culture of feedback, of conflict, and feedback as investment, we might be able to actually enter more spaces that are transparent and vulnerable and actually building toward more, more inclusion.

Rianka: 00:45:47 Yes. And I still think we need to define what is white culture and, and you've done a really great job of, of nipping it, uh, at the top. Um, but it's an iceberg. And I think I would like to go just a little deeper, especially because there's this, there's this perception maybe that there's a paradigm, a paradigm shift of power. And anytime we talk about diversity, I feel like, or equity and inclusion, it's just like, well, what about me in a sense of just like, because it's the either or mentality of if we do this then does that mean I don't have or I have less of because we're giving something to someone else?

Andrew: 00:46:41 Well, just the offer as a useful tool that has, I think been pretty impactful in my own understanding of what is white culture is. It's a text called From Dismantling Racism, a Workbook for Social Change Groups and it's written by Kenneth Jones and I don't know how I pronounce her name. I think Tema Okun, um, from 2001. And so it lists a lot of these characteristics and tenants that inform, you know, us talking about this culture. And I think just to be clear that a white culture isn't necessarily about white people, right? It can include white people, but this is damaging to not only white people but also can include and encompass people of color as well. And so I think, again, making that distinction and um, some of the things to, to your question rather that come up for me is, um, you mentioned the word professional.

Andrew: 00:47:26 I also think a lot about the word respect, right? And how I think about, in some cultures respect is eye contact and others it's not, right. I remember a moment distinctly, where I got, I was talking about examples of what respect is and I automatically said, oh, it's eye contact and had, a woman I believe at Middle Eastern descent say, actually, I want to push back on that and just offer that in my culture and my family. Right. That's, that's actually not the case. Right. And so I do. I had to be checked and receive that as a form of critical love.

Katie: 00:47:57 I often talk about professional culture and how that's deeply rooted in white culture because so often I will have a client or somebody in the C-suite will say, I like this person, but they're not really professional. We're going to terminate this person. They don't exhibit professional behavior and asked what does that look like? And often those the things they point to are deeply rooted in white culture, and again, like I'm still dancing around the definition of that, but it is what we sometimes consider quote unquote the normal culture and that often is deeply rooted in white culture. So how we show up at work, um, the fact that it is often considered appropriate to wear a suit and tie, give a firm handshake, look somebody in the eye. These are all professional behaviors, but who decided who gets to decide that's professional behavior. And that's usually, you know, I don't know if I have like a really good textbook definition.

Katie: 00:49:08 I'll look to people who work more in EDI space, I'm definitely rooted in HR, to help define that, that when people tell me those behaviors aren't professional, I'm like, well, those behaviors are deeply rooted in white culture. And is this person performing their job? Is this person um meeting or exceeding your expectations for the work to be done? Is this person kind and compassionate to their coworkers? Yes, yes, yes. Well then what? How are you defining professionalism? Are they too loud? Are they talking in a way that is unfamiliar to you? That to me is like is a helpful way to look at professional culture, white culture. Those things sometimes are often linked.

Andrew: 00:49:51 An entry point I often find helpful is to think about, um. Often it's more comfortable just to talk about American culture or business culture and then we can talk about, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and being an individual and we can talk about in other culture's right, that that's not necessarily the case, right? There's not this insistence on one's own personal gains with rather than have a community and actually acknowledging that that is not just an American thing, but we can talk about what's the history of America, right, and who is that historically benefited and often I think of it in terms of I think it's important in having this conversation of just because you shake someone's hand, look them in the eye, does that mean that you are inherently racist and doing things that are terrible? No, and I think in this conversation around inclusion, equity and diversity, right? It's about acknowledging and counteracting the notion that, that, that, that anything else is wrong, right?

Andrew: 00:50:45 Or less than or devalued. Right? And if anything, I think of white culture or norm culture just, it's so hard and slippery because I know from my own self as someone who benefits from that and has just seen that as normal being that dish and water, um, it's hard to identify. Right? And those are certainly the moments where I lean on people who hold different identities and navigate the road differently to name it and if anything, that culture has at least enabled or facilitated where we are today. And I think, um, you know, my mom always said, you know, what's, what's the definition of insanity? It's trying the same thing over and over again expecting different results. And I think if, if anything, we ought to look at the state of our organizations and say what's working? We can call culture a set of values, norms and beliefs and behaviors.

Andrew: 00:51:35 And we can say what's working in the norms and culture that we have has led us here. Um, we need to at least consider other ways of being right and really making the case, uh, I do a bit of work with an organization called Promise 54 and they work primarily with education organizations, systems level leaders through coaching, trainings, the gambit, and uh, they released the report called unrealized impact and in this report, one of the most robust in depth surveys and data collection around DEI specifically in education, but I think is translatable to the financial sector and beyond really makes the case not only for DEI as a soft skill, a nice to have, let's just be, let's just be full and express ourselves. Um, but really making the case to say it is actually our differences, diversity and perspectives that enable us to be more effective right in our work and to produce our, our bottom lines, if our bottom line is congruent with our humanity and in relationship, right as we so thoughtfully ground in this conversation in. So I'm happy to share and would highly recommend is looking at the report that they shared I think is highly translatable. To really make the case for this. Is this is essential work, right? Especially at a time that we're in

Rianka: 00:52:54 today. Yes. And I mean, Whoa, there's going to be so much information in the show notes, again, if you are just listening to this podcast on your phone, if you go to 2050trailblazers.com and click on this particular episode, there are going to be links to everything that Katie and Andrew has shared with us, the Ted talks. I'll make sure the resources as far as the links to, to the research, um, I mean because it's really important for us to continue this conversation beyond, I mean, we're just hitting the surface level like, like you said, Andrew, and I think it's really important for all of us to become educated around this, especially if we're going to move the needle for forward when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion in any industry, but particularly because this is, you know, this represents the financial service industry with us.

Rianka: 00:53:52 Um, and so something that you mentioned and I just want the listeners to kind of sit on, is that we do not spend time in the diagnosis stage. And um, so I just want us, I want it to go back to that because that point is kind of sticking with me, of we it and how we're are very reactive instead of proactive, like we react to something instead of just being proactively thinking about inclusion and diversity and equity. Something has to happen in order for us to actually react and do something about it. And then it's kind of like the cause and it's like listening and actually believing what the person is saying and it's a, it's a reflection of um, for the leaders. I think you are a true leader if you actually say, I don't know and seek help. So going back to the point, I think you may, Andrew as far as just like, um, you know, people are leaving, they send an industry wide email of saying, hey, I just left and here's why.

Rianka: 00:55:08 And share, or Katie, I think you mentioned it, share all this, these things that were happening to this particular person. And then it's just, it's a couple of things happened. Nothing. Or it's just like, well I don't know what to do. And then kind of dismiss it and instead of actually doing something about it, which is seeking help and just showing that no though you are in power though, you are the leader, you don't know the solution or the answer to this. And so the solution really is, is to seek help seek a consultant like you two.

Katie: 00:55:39 I kinda feel like the difference between reactionary and forward thinking is really highlighted in the me too movement where we have um, organizations who have had to do some deep house cleaning and deep self organization work to see how they have lost so much female talent because they had an employee or a culture of employees that were toxic. And in the, instead of building into a culture, the, the, the forward thinking would, thing would have been is like we, we care about our employees, all of our employees our female employees and we're going to build a culture that roots like roots out any toxicity when we see it and we hear it. And we take these complaints seriously. And, and we, we make sure that there are women in leadership. We make sure that there is channels. And avenues and for which people can make complaints, um, or bring something to the attention of leadership and we are pro.

Katie: 00:56:46 We are serious about handling investigations that come up. That's a, that's a proactive response. And what happened with a lot of organizations, especially in the last few years, is that people had been making these complaints and all of a sudden, oh no, we don't want to be on the news. Let's make what we need. We need to make some changes. But that toxic culture is still there, they weren't doing anything about the what created the culture that allowed this to happen. A reactionary approach is usually like, let's just cut off the, the problem and not diagnose. Let's, let's deal with the symptom and not diagnose the, the actual disease and where this is coming from.

Andrew: 00:57:32 Katie I know that you've done a lot of work around design thinking. I know the central stage of that is sort of the empathizing stage. I don't have as much experience, but I think it's relevant. Would you, would you mind speaking to some of your work around that and how that might show up in this conversation?

Katie: 00:57:46 A lot of what I do is teach HR what is somewhat intuitive but usually need some framework around it is this design thinking approach to solving problems, which is first to really understand the ask or the problem that that is surfaced. What do, what do we know, what we don't know, and who is the intended audience for the solve, like who, who are we solving for? And putting the that person in the center of that solve and then really empathizing with that user, really understanding that experience and user. I use that term in quotes and you can't see me because this was a podcast. The user can be the employee, can be the customer, can be whomever is in the center of that design to solve. And so what are they experiencing? What are they thinking? What are they feeling, what are they hearing within our organization?

Katie: 00:58:42 Um, what do we need to know about their experience, their experience inside and outside of our organization in order to create, um, programs, policies, procedures, create whatever it is that it's going to make their experience better. And then to ideate on those ideas, to test them out with those people. Say, is this, am I solving the right problem? Is this helping? Is this, is this going to help push the thing you're thinking or the thinking of the organization on this moment and then to launch it and constantly iterate on those plans. So for something like, um, rooting out like a culture of harassment in order to find a policy and procedure around that, finding out like talking to people who've left our organization, talking to people within our organization, what is happening? What do we not know? What have we been missing? Um, what support could we have provided? What do you see the issue is? And really understanding them and not trying to not trying to just solve that symptom but really get to the root of that problem.

Andrew: 00:59:51 Thanks Katie for outlining that. I think that's so valuable. I've only recently been introduced to that, that practice. But I think for folks who like myself, who oftentimes require like what's the structure or like a practice that I can take on and that helps me build some of these skills. I found it to be really helpful and I love the, what you said about the process being really iterative, right? I think this work being important to have, you know, I took a course in school by my professor, Candice Pakala and she taught a continuous evaluation course and really spoke a lot to the ability to have institutionalized practices that invite and sort of check ins of like I've heard it called an equity pause of just saying how are we doing? Who's included, who's at the table, who's not right, who ought to be here and to providing opportunity. How are we doing on this? Do we need to change course? And that's okay.

Katie: 01:00:42 Yeah, and one of the things I do with HR teams is to talk about policies and practices that we know and understand that, that we feel comfortable with like performance reviews, right? We're all, we're all very familiar with the performance review. Looks like how they've operated. Most of us have had that very traditional sit down with your manager do a performance review, but what I, to help them understand this process like, okay, well who did you design this process for? Visualize that person. Um, and often we're like, well that's our our top talent is, that's who we designed this for. It to like help that top talent. Well, what does that top talent look like? Like talk to me about who that is, like name a person. Um, and this kind of helps unlock that thinking of like, did we design this for all employees? Did we actually center our, our employees or the employees that we wish to have in this organization into that design?

Katie: 01:01:43 And if we didn't, if this isn't for everyone, if this is only for one type of worker, sometimes that is a white worker or a male worker, what, what in our design would help? And I use this word a lot, like liberate that work experience for them or be more holistic for them. So If, if we're creating process that is really great for one type of worker and we're missing all of this other talent that we need to redesign so that, that, but our, our, our whole employees are in the center of that design. And so that's really about what human centered design and design thinking is. And that's why I use that so much of my practice when it, when it deals with HR policies working through that with an EDI lens, it's like you have to really design for people and that a type of person because at a type of person often in our culture is a white man.

Rianka: 01:02:38 I love that equity pause is something new and I love. So yes, I'm going to. If we can share your professor's research, I would love to. I love that idea of just taking an equity pause and just like, all right, who, who's at the table? Who's missing, etc. Katie, what you were talking about as far as just like, yeah, that work design that I, I feel like I think all firms, all organizations, honestly, especially in the financial service industry, needs to take an equity. pause, what is it that they need to ask for? Because you know, it's like we're missing something but we don't know what to call it. So we don't know who to call. What is this called and who do we call? Because people are calling me and I'm like, listen, I don't have the answers, but I can, I can help. I can connect you to people who do.

Katie: 01:03:40 I think the big thing is there's not a quick solve. There isn't someone that's going to come in and um, just say, do this, this, this and this, and now you have equitable pay. Now you have a leadership team that is more diverse it takes work. It takes time. It takes resources to Andrew's point earlier, equity lives in the budget and the calendar is not quick and it requires. I do believe, and I'm not just saying this because I'm a consultant, but it does sometimes take somebody outside of your organization to look at your organization that has no reporting structure, that has no ability to, aren't the, the disadvantage of feeling like I can't say the true thing because this is my boss, my boss's boss. You need somebody to look at your organization and say, here are the things that I'm concerned about and here's the things that can be barriers for you to meeting these goals.

Andrew: 01:04:44 I know we touched on, I think when we prepped for this conversation, we thought about, you know, the concept of using our social capital relationships to, to get jobs, right? Or to invite people and I think it's important, right? To lean on those we trust and have relationships with. And to your point, Katie, I also think it's important to have folks with fresh eyes, a different perspective and it makes me think Rianka, your question is about, um, I would wonder if organizational leaders really know their people and why I asked that is because I think as I sort of mentioned before, even in the process of bringing in external consultant or engaging in the work or something as simple as starting a book club, right? Where is, where is that decision coming from and how is it being dictated or decreed? Right? Um, and so I would wonder, leaning in, leveraging the expertise, the knowledge, the relationships with people even within your organization, right, of your, of your team. Um, to a certain extent, right? To say, you know, what do y'all think, what do y'all know? Right. Again, in that tension of not just reproducing the same homogeneous relationship circles were a part of and holding that, you know, I may not have the answers I can do, I know my people enough, um, and lean on them and invite them to also be in this process with me.

Rianka: 01:06:02 One more question and then we can, and then we can, you know, bring this to a close a season two is about to come to a close. No. All right, one more question and it's something that we chatted on and we, you know, prior to our conversation today, um, and we, we all had a immediate reactions to it. So I want to make sure we touch on it because it's kind of like what you just mentioned that what both of you have been mentioning throughout this entire conversation is that there are no quick fixes and it's going to take time. It's going to take resources, is going to take money. Um, and are you willing to put that time, the blood, sweat and tears into this to make this work? um, the reactive-ness that I think we are starting to see in our culture is to hire a DNI officer at a diversity and inclusion officer and is like, is that the solution?

Rianka: 01:07:05 And, and that's one question and the what I'm also starting to see, and I just read an article right before our conversation today, I won't name the organization, um, is outside of financial services, but they've had some issues with being culturally insensitive with their marketing. And so now they just hired a black woman as their diversity international strategist or something like that. I've seen this pattern with other companies like Starbucks hired Mellody Hobson who, if you don't know who she is, I'll put her in the show notes because she is an awesome, phenomenal black woman who has a phenomenal Ted talk called instead of being colorblind, be color brave, uh, and um, start. Um, I'm seeing that. What is that? I just want to talk about it. Like what is that? And is this a solution? You know, hiring someone in particular. I know the answers to this, but I want us to have a conversation.

New Speaker: 01:08:12 There is this woman who runs tests consulting and she said this thing to me once that just resonated and she, she talks about the glass ceiling, but she also talked about this glass cliff where when there is this problem, they bring in a woman, often a black woman to come solve this problem. And this problem is huge, it requires budget. It requires time, it requires bodies, resources, but they they're like here you solve it. And when she doesn't, they blame her. We tried, we tried to stop this problem, see, here's the evidence. We tried to hire this woman, it didn't work and she is, she is to blame and when they said this it really hit home, because this is a pattern within the organization. So it's not that this role is the problem, but it's also not the solution. The solution is in the work that this role helps to usher in and is that work the real work that's going to get the organization to move the needle on their goal or is this kind of a, um, a symbol to investors, to the market, to employees. That yep, we care about this, but we're not really willing to do any of the work. And like, what power does that role have, what power does it have amongst the rest of the c suite? Is it an equitable share of power? Does this person have just as much voice in decision making and not just decision making about EDI stuff, but decision making by the strategy of the organization, um, decision making in the financials and the organization because that is where EDI lives and not just in that one funnel.

Rianka: 01:09:59 Yeah. And it makes me think about, um, what you mentioned as far as, you know, this DEI diversity, equity inclusion. It doesn't live just in one department. It's not the end all be all the alpha and omega is not HR or is not this new chief diversity officer that you hire. It, it, it really needs to be embedded and though, yes they can, you know, bring some solutions and, and, and all that to the table. But it really needs to be a company wide organization wide effort.

Andrew: 01:10:35 Katie. I love what you said and I echo all of it. There was one thing that it made me stand out as a, as a dialog facilitator. Of course I'm going to offer a couple of questions, um, to, to sit with that I sit with repeatedly and you mentioned the word blame and I think that there's power in moving from asking who is to blame to asking what are my contributions to this problem, right? And not just leaving all of the blame on that dni officer representing what that might, they might be somewhat responsible and what are my contributions to this issue? I think whether a dni officer or not, is it the solution? No. Is it something? yes, and is always effective maybe. Um, but I think really coming to that conclusion from asking ourselves and really being honest and saying, what does success look like? Her organization, having some imagination in that and who's determining that success, right? So who are we accountable to? Are we accountable to our most marginalized and historically oppressed employees? Oftentimes not. Right? I think that those are just, I think important questions that I've wrestled with a lot.

Rianka: 01:11:41 I know we can talk for hours. I love all of my guests. I love you two. Thank you so much for your time, your energy, your expertise that you have brought to this conversation. And before I let you go, I want to just, you know, is there anything else that you want to share with the 2050 trailblazers listeners as we close out a very dynamic and engaging season two?

Katie: 01:12:04 This is for the audience that looks like me and you Rianka biracial or Asian part of your listenership where this conversation is not for white people. No, just kidding. We hold a responsibility in ally ship as well. And this is something that I'm really thinking about a lot lately is that those of us who are somewhat adjacent to white culture, who are often the first people that are brought in to diversify an organization is usually biracial people or Asian people. And what responsibility we have to be allies, um, for other people in marginalized communities because we often have more of a voice with white people. And that's something really like. So we, it's been hard for me to kind of come to terms with and something that I've had to awaken to my responsibility in, in how organizations run and how and, and my, my own privilege and like what, what can we do to be allies and how do we make sure we're showing up for other people of color in the organization.

Rianka: 01:13:43 I know exactly what you're talking about, Katie and yes, yes, I, we can talk about that but I'm trying to hold back. So I'm gonna just be quiet Andrew. That can definitely be another. Here we go. Season season three. Katie's coming back.

Andrew: 01:13:47 I'll keep it short because that was so well said, my first piece is extending my gratitude and call to action. I'll speak to my folks right around white people in this work. Men in this work, cis-gendered, um, one. Look at Katie's work look at Rianka's work follow them. Uh, you know, partner with them, right? I think that I feel so enthralled by this conversation, the work that they do and just repeatedly grateful for that. So that's what, that's why one, that's my one urge, but to acknowledging that, um, again, reinforcing that this work is ongoing and as folks who hold privilege identities in this work, acknowledging that it's not about us and it involves us, right in finding, in asking, as Katie mentioned, why do I care about this work, what's at stake for me? Um, and what is my role. I think our questions that really sit with. And so I just again, want to extend my appreciation for this conversation, the time to, to share some things that I've learned along the way.

Rianka: 01:14:47 Yes. Thank you so much, Katie. Thank you so much, Andrew.

Katie: 01:14:48 Andrew, just like thank you for everything you've said, I feel like I've learned a lot from you, and I've really enjoyed this

Andrew: 01:14:53 Oh, likewise. Thank you.

Rianka: 01:14:56 I knew bringing you two together would be perfect. It's been great having you two on. Thank you so much, Katie. Thank you so much, Andrew, for again, just giving us your time and your expertise and um, as we know, time is our currency and you've spent a lot of time with us and our, our listeners and just helping us become better people. Um, so that we can be better colleagues and, and friends to each other. So thank you so much and I am so looking forward to future conversations.